Space Manbow 2 where?

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By Ramones

Champion (264)

Аватар пользователя Ramones

02-02-2016, 09:35

Manuel wrote:

You said it was 'easy to demonstrate'. Now, please go ahead. Asking to demonstrate the opposite is not it Tongue

Hey! I had to try it! ^^!

Ok. I have thinking this night and... yes... I'm wrong. I can't demonstrate my words. I can argue a lot of points to demonstrate and you can always argue the opposite. So, I'm wrong.

Ok, I don't want you think my answer it's the easy way. So I answer your question although I'm wrong.

The first argue point it's, what are the years "pre-emulator", "emulator" and "very implanted emulator"? In my brain:

1994 - 2000 : pre or non emulator era.
2000 - 2009 : emulator era.
2009 - 2016: very implanted emulator era.

We can focus in pre and very emulator era. 6 years.

How many Dutch games I could buy in the 94-00 non emulator era?
How many Dutch games I can buy in the 2009-2015 very implanted era?

Ok, I should use in my answer emulator era (2000- 2009). Or the expansion of free and MSX-Dev or similar games. Indeed is a evidence: There are more games in this era than the pre emulator era. And, as we all know, dutch users are very very happy with the MSX1-dev-or-similar games.

In short:

- We are (or the MSX community) in the gold years thanks the emulators.
- We have tons of great games (like Umax, Parallax, etc games) in development.
- Thanks to emulators the MSX is still alive. Although the people (users) have their MSX in the basement.

So... I'm wrong. Cool

By gdx

Enlighted (5330)

Аватар пользователя gdx

02-02-2016, 09:39

For me the emulators are indispensable and the hardware too. There are many materials and the emulators are advanced. The MSX is rich. It is a good retro hobby.

By Imanok

Paragon (1191)

Аватар пользователя Imanok

02-02-2016, 09:39

First of all, I agree emulation helps a lot in the development process nowadays... that's out of question. But:

-Stating than MSX would be dead without emulation is too much. The scene has evolved the way it is right now because of the existance of emulators... if they didn't exist, the evolution would have been different: maybe there would be less "MSX users" (in general), but more "real MSX users" right now (there would be more MSX machines at desktops instead of laying in attics/closets).

-Regarding development, maybe people would have continued programming on the real thing... or maybe great devices like Nowind would have been widely spread, becoming the "standard development set".

There's only one thing I know FOR SURE: I woud be here developing anyway Wink

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Аватар пользователя Ramones

02-02-2016, 09:42

Imanok wrote:

There's only one thing I know FOR SURE: I woud be here developing anyway Wink

+1 Imanok! BA-team

And I prefer "without emulator". Less people and more real machines and users. And, FOR SURE I would be developing anyway. Tongue

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Аватар пользователя Ramones

02-02-2016, 09:43

Grauw wrote:

None of my recent projects would have existed without emulator. To develop and test on MSX all the time, I just don't have the patience for it anymore.

Can you demonstrate? LOL!

(just kidding)

By Daemos

Paragon (1959)

Аватар пользователя Daemos

02-02-2016, 10:40

Here is my experience with emulation and the real thing. I love developing on real msx. It is a certain feel and most of my little utilities are made straight on MSX. however projects that have a huge scope cannot be compiled on my real msxes + the amount of testing and debugging would kill my flashdrives and slow development down significantly.

I never play games on emu thats where I have the real stuff for. But emu's are a must for the big projects. Also I like to add that I only own 2 real msxes and not the rest and very advanced emulators allow me to test my code on all the msx models without having to store like 200 computers in a basement. It really helps.

It is painfull to say but the real thing isn't made anymore. I treat my stuff like a baby but if my turbo-r dies one day I am no longer willing to spend like $800 (if not more by that time) for another. Eventually all the real msxes will parish unless someone will start making new ones and all what will be left will be emulation. At that point we will use microcomputers with emulators in the firmware and use them as the real thing. I agree the experience is just not the same but it is how time works.

Thus within (30? 40?) years emulation will significantly start to contribute to the preservation of our MSX platform. It will either be emulation or a new machine build out of FPGA stuff. Sad

By Grauw

Ascended (10560)

Аватар пользователя Grauw

02-02-2016, 10:51

Ramones wrote:

1994 - 2000 : pre or non emulator era.
2000 - 2009 : emulator era.
2009 - 2016: very implanted emulator era.

We can focus in pre and very emulator era. 6 years.

How many Dutch games I could buy in the 94-00 non emulator era?
How many Dutch games I can buy in the 2009-2015 very implanted era?

You must be joking... How can you correlate the size of the community to the existence of emulators? Time passes, community of an old computer shrinks as less people use it and the people who do are having jobs and not so much free time for hobby programming anymore. Back in the 90s I was in high school and my MSX was my only computer. It’s an entirely logical progression and I don’t see any reason or evidence or even plausible theory why this would be related to the existence of emulators.

Ramones wrote:
Grauw wrote:

None of my recent projects would have existed without emulator. To develop and test on MSX all the time, I just don't have the patience for it anymore.

Can you demonstrate? LOL!

(just kidding)

I don’t know how you would like me to demonstrate this, but I’m confident in my statement. I’m a professional programmer now, used to modern tools and modern iteration times. I was inactive with MSX for a couple of years, and I would not have bothered to start any new MSX projects again if I had to go back to my old MSX-based dev environment.

My MSXes are not in a basement, and I do test on them, but everytime I do it’s quite a lot of hassle compared to development on the emulator with its super quick run-and-test time and easy debugging. For example, I recently spent two evenings investigating a MoonSound issue. If the quirk had been emulated I could’ve been done in a few hours.

I’ve encountered several other nasty types of bugs (e.g. mysterious memory corruption type) that I don’t even know how I would’ve begun to debug them on a real MSX, and would’ve taken a long time to figure out. Sometimes I have to turn to testing on the real machine, but otherwise I count my blessings that it’s emulated.

By Grauw

Ascended (10560)

Аватар пользователя Grauw

02-02-2016, 11:00

By the way, even companies like Konami were using "emulators" of sorts when they were developing their MSX software. They would develop on a PC workstation with a Z80 expansion module which allowed them to debug code on that machine in stead of deploying to MSX all the time.

By Metalion

Paragon (1480)

Аватар пользователя Metalion

02-02-2016, 11:13

Grauw wrote:

By the way, even companies like Konami were using "emulators" of sorts when they were developing their MSX software. They would develop on a PC workstation with a Z80 expansion module which allowed them to debug code on that machine in stead of deploying to MSX all the time.

True, but not on a PC workstation.
It was done on HP 64000 hardware, which was a dedicated development station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_64000

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

Аватар пользователя anonymous

02-02-2016, 11:18

Interesting to see how the thread is drifting from "emulators are MSX preservation" to "emulators are indispensable to develop" to "emulators are useful to develop". The last statement is undoubtedly true. The other two are clearly false. As a matter of fact, the first one is the opposite to the reality.

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