Space Harrier 2 - Grandslam

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By Manuel

Ascended (18161)

Аватар пользователя Manuel

28-05-2020, 00:16

nataliapc wrote:
Manuel wrote:

Very short summary: a normalized WAV file is both identical for the same game, easily compressed and usable on real MSX directly.

Sorry Manuel, but that's not true... and that is not the summary of that link.
Take 2 tapes of the same game, and you will not obtain never the same WAV (normalized or not).

With normalized I mean: a regenerated WAV, with a standard amplitude and a standard way of creating a wave form that will give the exact same pulses as the raw WAV. That wav should be identical between 2 dumps of the same game, as the bits that end up in the MSX (with their timing) will be identical.
And yes, WAV is a bit stupid to encode in for such a thing, but it is directly compatible with MSX and compressed it will not be much larger than a smarter format.
As was also discussed there. The downside is, I admit, it is a quite low level way to store the dump and the format is a bit overkill for it. (A more compact format would only directly encode the pulses with their timing, the minimum information to generate the same bit-pattern in the MSX PSG.) The low level format makes it hard to actually make bytes of it.
So, if that's important (e.g. for IPS patching) a higher level format, like TSX (or even CAS, which has its own downsides) can be useful.

Quote:

The summary is that you don't want to add TSX support to openMSX.

... I'd say, everyone can read that thread and make his own summary. If this is yours, then enjoy.

By Tolvatar

Paladin (996)

Аватар пользователя Tolvatar

28-05-2020, 00:40

Manuel. I'm getting Lost.
You mean to create the wav from a CAS or a TSX? This way you can get an identical WAV but it's a bit nonsense.
Other way it's fisically impossible to get 2 identical WAV files. From a real tape it's not possible.

A compressed WAV file could be easily a few hundred times bigger than the cas or tsx file for the same tape.

And i'm sorry but reading the pull request i got similar summary that Natalia.

Once i say this i repeat that there's no problem. Perhaps some day you include the TSXDuino on Openmsx like Megaflash, Rookie Drive or other FPGAs that have support on It.

We try to reach perfection dumping the data contained on the tapes. Isn't perfection the goal of Openmsx?

By theNestruo

Champion (317)

Аватар пользователя theNestruo

28-05-2020, 00:41

From my point of view:

.CAS --> plain text
.TSX --> formatted text (fonts, sizes, margins...)
.WAV --> a photo of the printed page posterized down to 1 bit

It seems that TSX carries all the required information, and does it in a convenient and efficient way.
Also, both CAS and WAV can be generated from the TSX; the opposite not being necessarily true (is that font tahoma or verdana? is the marging 0.98 or 0.99?)

I really don't understand the reluctance to support TSX... (and specially when a pull request already exists)

By nataliapc

Expert (95)

Аватар пользователя nataliapc

28-05-2020, 00:51

Manuel wrote:

With normalized I mean: a regenerated WAV, with a standard amplitude and a standard way of creating a wave form that will give the exact same pulses as the raw WAV. That wav should be identical between 2 dumps of the same game, as the bits that end up in the MSX (with their timing) will be identical.

So... a normalized WAV is like a TSX but but more complicated and without the advantadges of a TSX? Big smile
You can obtain a fully normalized WAV from a TSX... Wink

Manuel wrote:

And yes, WAV is a bit stupid to encode in for such a thing, but it is directly compatible with MSX and compressed it will not be much larger than a smarter format.

Not directly compatible with MSX, you need a WAV player, exactly the same for TSX: you need a TSX player.
But TSX is a more smarter format, and you can access the programs bytes directly with an editor.

Manuel wrote:

As was also discussed there. The downside is, I admit, it is a quite low level way to store the dump and the format is a bit overkill for it. (A more compact format would only directly encode the pulses with their timing, the minimum information to generate the same bit-pattern in the MSX PSG.) The low level format makes it hard to actually make bytes of it.
So, if that's important (e.g. for IPS patching) a higher level format, like TSX (or even CAS, which has its own downsides) can be useful.

Well... that could be interesting too, but not unique neither for two tapes of the same game.
With "normalized WAVs" you're lossing the best of the WAV format without any improvement.
CAS are a very easy and useful format, but loss the real pulse format and the patched custom loaders.

The TSX objetive is the preservation of the tapes, and provide an easy way to study the code (sorry but pulses/samples based formats can't help with that).

It would be great and very kind from the openmsx team help to enrich even more the MSX community adding TSX support.

Manuel wrote:
nataliapc wrote:

The summary is that you don't want to add TSX support to openMSX.

... I'd say, everyone can read that thread and make his own summary. If this is yours, then enjoy.

Sure, the pull request thread is public and sure the people have their own opinions...

...and thanks Manuel, we are enjoying:
https://github.com/nataliapc/openMSX_TSX

I wish you also the best. Enjoy.

By Manuel

Ascended (18161)

Аватар пользователя Manuel

28-05-2020, 00:49

What best property of wavs would we lose by normalizing them?

Don't you think wav players are enormously more common than tsx players?

And why wouldn't these normalised wav files be identical for the same game?

It would help if you would also explain your statements.

By nataliapc

Expert (95)

Аватар пользователя nataliapc

28-05-2020, 01:06

Quote:

What best property of wavs would we lose by normalizing them?

The raw WAV is a good copy of a tape, but is subject to errors.

The normalized WAV is a good preservation storage, maybe without errors but not 100% sure, but without semmantic data and not acces to byte data.

The same or better normalized WAV could be generated from a TSX file and with a lot more of advantages.

Quote:

Don't you think wav players are enormously more common than tsx players?

To play a TSX you just need an app installed at your smartphone.

Quote:

And why wouldn't these normalised wav files be identical for the same game?

You just can try to create 2 WAVs from 2 tapes of the same game and see...

Even with TSX files could be different, so imagine with WAV files!
But TSX files have a data hash that is the same in all the converted tapes of the same game.
You can't have that data hash with raw or normalized WAVs files.

By Tolvatar

Paladin (996)

Аватар пользователя Tolvatar

28-05-2020, 01:06

Manuel. In 2020, any player is common. All of us has a smartphone.

A normalised as you call needs to be redone from another previous format, this is stupid.
If you have the cas, the tsx or any other formato, why could you want a WAV from this? I couldn't understand what you want.
I repeat again, it's fisically impossible to get 2 identical wav file from a tape.

This is like talking to a wall

By pgimeno

Champion (300)

Аватар пользователя pgimeno

28-05-2020, 01:13

nataliapc wrote:

The same or better normalized WAV could be generated from a TSX file and with a lot more of advantages.

What tool can one use to generate that WAV?

By nataliapc

Expert (95)

Аватар пользователя nataliapc

28-05-2020, 01:24

pgimeno wrote:

What tool can one use to generate that WAV?

openMSX_TSX internally is generating a WAV from the TSX that is reproduced like a tape. This is possible thanks to the accurate tape emulation in openMSX.

You can also use the commandline TZX2WAV tool.

And of course the smartphone apps that convert the TSX to an audio stream and used in your real MSX.

Many of them can be found at: https://tsx.eslamejor.com

By pgimeno

Champion (300)

Аватар пользователя pgimeno

28-05-2020, 01:29

nataliapc wrote:

You can also use the commandline TZX2WAV tool.

Is there some equivalent utility with source code that works for Linux?

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