European alternative

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Door pitpan

Prophet (3152)

afbeelding van pitpan

15-06-2003, 19:22

Why don't we make an european agreement?
ASCII Corp is always thinking in the japanese market, but at the moment, there is no physical evidence of MSX projection overseas. They show some interest, but no plans at all. And there is no new hardware under development: no new MSX. Only emulators (a fMSX rip-off).
We can choose our own way. Leonardo Padial is working in the right direction: a new MSX based on a modular design that enables full native support of original MSX stuff and also lets the standard grow to another dimension, getting full 16/32-bit life with powerful hardware.
Also the prices aren't really expensive. At the moment, you can buy a MSX2/MSX2+ (without FM) for 330 euros, including 512 KB RAM (20 ns). You can case it all in a PC box, use a AT power supply and PC PS/2 keyboard. And it is a new MSX, that leads a new path opened to the future, with a 32-bit bus and slots. It sounds really interesting for me.
Ademir Carchano, the brazilian MSX hardware developer seems to be stalled with its super-MSX2+ project. No news and no progress.

Perhaps the time has come to make our own decisions and forget Japan forever.
I will be heavily criticised for this post, I know. I'd really like to trust in ASCII/MSX Association, but we cannot even buy the magazine!!!! It's not a good sign.

Kind regards,

Ed Robsy

EMSX is here and it's real. It's a new MSX for the future.
In Japan there's nothing more than 2 (or 3) magazines. The other things are just projects, that could be or couldn't be done.

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Van Ivan

Ascended (9326)

afbeelding van Ivan

15-06-2003, 21:23

Hi Ed

Emmmm... just one question... in what world do you live? Smile

Do you think that people is going to pay 330 euros for a PCB (with 512 Kbytes, wow!...) to put it into a horrible PC case? Do you think also that Leonardo Padial or Ademir Carchano (excellent MSX HW developers by the way) could manufacture/sell a new MSX computer on a large scale (internationally) offering a product with a very good design/with manuals/boxed and with guarantee in all the countries where this new computer would be going to be sold? And what about the copyrights?

All of this can be only achieved by a very big company (even ASCII could not manufacture a new MSX computer without the collaboration of a big company!).

Ask arround what MSX computer will a MSXer buy NOW for 330 euros. I will give you the answer; a MSXturboR.

If you don't see this, you don't see anything man.

Just my 2 cents

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

15-06-2003, 21:39

As regards the MSX magazine I agree fully with you, you can read my opinion in discussion I made with Snout elswhere in another forum.
In the discussion what is coming up you can visit ofcourse also the sunrise site and see what we are planning. If we finish -if people , better MSXcommunity gives us the time -the ethernetcard as described according the pdf that can be downloaded you have already 3/4 of a new msx. The other necessary parts must be implemented in a FPGA , that had to take care of the vdp's/soundchips/keyboard to be short the replacement of a msx-2(+) at least.
The main difference between our plans and Padial is the use of the processor.
We take as you can see the EZ80 and Padial the Z380
I admire Padial for his work, however it is almost impossible to get him sofar that he cooperates.
I give an example :we negotiated with him about the mouse-interface integrated with the keyboard interface. Padial uses in that case two Z8 OTP for it.
In our opinion a fault cause if you make a mistake as regards the software you can throw away the Z8 . Padial does not want to use any alternative.
To leave MSX Association without the discussion would be unwise cause ESE factories have altready developed 90% of what is necessary
Also there the processor is the only obstacle and we want to see the V9990 and Opl4 integrated in the so called all in one chip.
The Japanese think the integration of the Z80 into the all in one chip will be much faster than a EZ80 OR Z380. If they want to do that they need permission from Zilog and they donot have that.
I can help them if they want cause two years ago , when I wanted to buy the evaluationboard of the Ez80 there was a seminar of Zilog overhere in Bunnik that I visited and made some contacts with important people within zilog.
Namely the european part. And that is the most ointeresting. The Ez80 will be mainly supported from Europe. England and Germany.
For V9990 and opL4 japan doesnot need that cause Yamaha gave them the permission to do so.
So you see we need simply Japan also.
The copyrights thus, bios, etc.
Setting up also a new software platform for continuing the system and compatibility downwards is also to be settled.

Conclusion: The MSX-Player is no absolute must to get a new system. Preferable is ofcourse the all in one chip in FPGA realized. I see this separated from the player.
I see more and more that is necessary to write an open letter to Kay Nishi to say what we want and this must be a common signal from Europe( especially the netherlands and spain) and Brazil.

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

15-06-2003, 21:46

Hi Ed

Emmmm... just one question... in what world do you live? Smile

Do you think that people is going to pay 330 euros for a PCB (with 512 Kbytes, wow!...) to put it into a horrible PC case? Do you think also that Leonardo Padial or Ademir Carchano (excellent MSX HW developers by the way) could manufacture/sell a new MSX computer on a large scale (internationally) offering a product with a very good design/with manuals/boxed and with guarantee in all the countries where this new computer would be going to be sold? And what about the copyrights?

All of this can be only achieved by a very big company (even ASCII could not manufacture a new MSX computer without the collaboration of a big company!).

Ask arround what MSX computer will a MSXer buy NOW for 330 euros. I will give you the answer; a MSXturboR.

If you don't see this, you don't see anything man.

Just my 2 cents

Well if it is a Turbo-r , felt to be seen.
Simply the fact that a Turbo-r is a special type a MSX ofcourse and the R800-processor has to be implemented in FPGA ofcourse to realize that.
It is better to seek a processor that there is and that is compatible, because if you buy that processor the rights you have otherwise you negotiate for rights for implementation Ivan .

Besides we are already leaving AT-supply and it become ATX

Van snout

Ascended (15187)

afbeelding van snout

15-06-2003, 22:21

Why does it have to be revival OR a machine created by hobbyists? The two can perfectly exist next to each other. However, I have become a little sceptic about the new MSX projects from hobbyists.

First of all there is a total lack of co-operation. We all like MSX, an important reason for that is the standard. However, there are now 3 or 4 (or more?) hardware specialists working on their own implementation of a new MSX, and I am afraid only little REAL attempts to co-operate were made. If we want to keep MSX a standard, this co-operation is ESSENTIAL. Besides, I think the development of new MSX-based computers by hardware hobbyists can not even remotely approach the effect of what the MSX Revival could do.

Second I miss the MSX-feeling in most 'new MSX'-hobbyist projects. Putting things in a standard AT or ATX case? Are you mad? Smile So far, I think I like the CIEL3++ project the most, however I have not been hearing from it for a while now.

The reason the MSX-Revival is confined to Japan only is MICROSOFT, not the MSX-Association. Although people are trying to claim otherwise, the MSX-Association has aimed to keep in touch with the 'overseas' community as much as possible. Examples: Asking people on the international MSX Mailinglist for a name for the official MSX emulator, Nishi coming to Tilburg in 2001 and the new MSX magazine which will contain lots of information on MSX in Netherlands, Spain and Brazil.

However, Microsoft has a thing about copyrights. Most companies do, actually. They don't let them go that easily. After a lot of hard work and a financial agreement, the MSX Association was allowed to distribute MSXPLAYer in Japan only. Distribution outside of Japan is illegal. Of course, MSX Association could also have aimed at another country to get the licence free instead of Japan, but since there live more MSX enthousiasts in Japan than in Oogieboogiestan I think they made a smart decision. In Japan are not only the most MSX enthousiasts, but also all the companies MSX Association could possibly need in the future.

Behind the screens, several parties like us (the MSX Resource Center Foundation) are keeping in touch with the MSX Association and the people behind the new developments in the MSX Revival. But since companies (especially Japanese ones) don't like classified information leaking out you have not been hearing a lot about that.

People who are claiming that MSX Association is not interested in other countries than Japan have not been noticing the MSX news for the past 3 years. Or at least they have been misinterpreting it a lot. People who are still thinking ASCII is behind the MSX Revival (as I interpret from pitpans post) have really not been paying a lot of attention to what has been happening around the MSX Revival. It's ok to have a different opinion, but at least base that opinion on facts, and not on assumptions.

It's easy to play the 'oh help, we are all left alone, we don't want the MSX Association!'-role, but I think that attitude will only make the MSX Association think twice before introducing anything in the regions where those sounds come from.

The MSXPLAYer is more than an fMSX-ripoff (you wouldn't call NLMSX an fMSX-ripoff, woudln't you? Well.. I have news for you, NLMSX is also based on fMSX and MSXPLAYer emulates most things just as good as NLMSX). Besides, there is new hardware in development. Have you missed the newsposts on the USB-Cartridgereader? the FPGA prototypes? MSX BASIC for Robo-Education?

The purpose of the MSX Magazines and the MSXPLAYers are not as much to gain money, but to build up a name again. To get companies which the MSX Association will need in order to make any new computer a success again, interested in the future plans of the MSX Association.

To sum things up:

1. MSX Association is interested in introducing the MSX Revival overseas
2. Microsoft = evil (but hey, you knew that already, didn't you)
3. An MSX Revival does not stop hobbyists from creating new hardware or software.
4. MSXPLAYer is not a bad MSX Emulator
5. MSX Association is working on new hardware

Van Ivan

Ascended (9326)

afbeelding van Ivan

15-06-2003, 23:07

Why does it have to be revival OR a machine created by hobbyists? The two can perfectly exist next to each other. However, I have become a little sceptic about the new MSX projects from hobbyists.

A little sceptic ONLY?...
Imagine that Sunrise, Leonardo Padial and Ademir Carchano design a new revolutionary PCB; the new SPC-PSX3 (SunrisePadialCarchano-PSX3) Wink fully compatible with actual PSX2 game console with superior graphics, sound, etc, etc, etc...

Do you think that they could sell this new game console as a PCB board to put it into a PC box?...................................... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

THERE MUST BE A CONSUMER ELECTRONICS LEADING COMPANY BEHIND THEM!!!

Nishi, the MSX-Association, ESE, Sunrise,... will have nothing to do if there is no big company behind a new MSX. I'm sure about this. In fact there were rumours that the MSX-Association was having contacts with big Japanese consumer electronics companies.

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

15-06-2003, 23:15

>>Why does it have to be revival OR a machine created by hobbyists? The two can perfectly exist next to each other. However, I have become a little sceptic about the new MSX projects from hobbyists.<<

A little sceptic ONLY?...
Imagine that Sunrise, Leonardo Padial and Ademir Carchano design a new revolutionary PCB; the new SPC-PSX3 (SunrisePadialCarchano-PSX3) Wink fully compatible with actual PSX2 game console with superior graphics, sound, etc, etc, etc...

Do you think that they could sell this new game console as a PCB board to put it into a PC box?...................................... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

THERE MUST BE A CONSUMER ELECTRONICS LEADING COMPANY BEHIND THEM!!!

Nishi, the MSX-Association, ESE, Sunrise,... will have nothing to do if there is no big company behind a new MSX. I'm sure about this. In fact there were rumours that the MSX-Association was having contacts with big Japanese consumer electronics companies.

Nice name Ivan SPC , psx3 no (copyrights Wink )
We think of no mass production but simply keeping msx alive with new technology
But snout stated lack of working together yes , with adrian i would give it a try, cause you know Padial ask rafa

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

15-06-2003, 23:36

Snout I agree on point 3,4,5.
on point one and two, msx associations has simply to ask for the price.
IF WE WANT ALL TO PAY THE PRICE FOR IT SURE IT CAN BE DONE.
i doubt it but it is no excuse to donot try it at least.
I proposed a poll. Give the results to MSX ASSOCIATIONS
In my view our plans are simply the best.
-We want to cooperate with Japan.
Padial, although they his work I see no approÀCH
I talked several times with Padial to get an agreement ofr Keyboard interface etc
-Our plans depend on Japanese developments
-payable, compatible thoughts ,and we will be carried out if we can rely on the continuing effort of ESE ,ourselves ofcourse and the the time the people will give you to develop.
We forget also not Bitiwise to carry out the USB-support

Revival versus a new msx is more created by the fact that revival is brought as only a player. You know that Snout, I do but e.g. Ivan doesnot.
Big smile

Van pitpan

Prophet (3152)

afbeelding van pitpan

15-06-2003, 23:47

The reason the MSX-Revival is confined to Japan only is MICROSOFT, not the MSX-Association. Although people are trying to claim otherwise, the MSX-Association has aimed to keep in touch with the 'overseas' community as much as possible. Examples: Asking people on the international MSX Mailinglist for a name for the official MSX emulator, Nishi coming to Tilburg in 2001 and the new MSX magazine which will contain lots of information on MSX in Netherlands, Spain and Brazil.

However, Microsoft has a thing about copyrights. Most companies do, actually. They don't let them go that easily. After a lot of hard work and a financial agreement, the MSX Association was allowed to distribute MSXPLAYer in Japan only. Distribution outside of Japan is illegal. Of course, MSX Association could also have aimed at another country to get the licence free instead of Japan, but since there live more MSX enthousiasts in Japan than in Oogieboogiestan I think they made a smart decision. In Japan are not only the most MSX enthousiasts, but also all the companies MSX Association could possibly need in the future.

Please correct me if I am wrong:

ASCII has got the full rights over MSX BIOS
Microsoft has got the full rights over MSX BASIC and MSX-DOS (not sure about this)

If this is true, then MSX PLAYER could be exported easily outside of Japan. Remeber which was the first game to be reviewed in MSX-Magazine (revival)? BOKOSUKA WARS.
This is a ROM game that does not use MSX BASIC at all. This is a tiny example. It happens with most ROMs and also the games that are not using MSX-BASIC.
If they really wanted to, they could prepare an MSX-Magazine with less contents to be exported outside Japan. The Microsoft "copyright" sounds not very convincing, just an excuse.

For example, what if a Turbo-R emulator was done? MSX-BASIC v.4 does not belong to Microsoft, and it can execute MSX-BASIC from 1 to 3 also. I am not sure about the copyright of this BASIC, but all that I stated previously makes sense, doesn't it?

This is my point of view. Sad but true.

Ed Robsy

Van snout

Ascended (15187)

afbeelding van snout

15-06-2003, 23:58

Please correct me I am wrong:
ASCII has got the full rights over MSX BIOS

Wrong, when Nishi left ASCII, he took all MSX-copyrights with him and started the MSX Association. ASCII has no MSX-copyrights anymore. However, they are the publisher of MSX Magazine.

Microsoft has got the full rights over MSX BASIC and MSX-DOS (not sure about this)

IIRC part of the BIOS is theirs to. However, Nishi thinks the BASIC is essential for an official MSX Emulator and I think he's right. We all started programming the MSX using BASIC, didn't we? MSX-BASIC opens a by through which you can enter a world of fun and creativity. Besides, keep in mind that the MSXPLAYer is not aimed at the existing MSX Community but to attract new people to the community, to focus important companies on the power(s) of MSX once again.

Sunrise, I don't think we even whant to know what (obviously rediculously high) price Microsoft is asking for those copyrights. And I wonder what gave you the idea they never even asked. I will try and find out more about the things related to these copyrights.

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

16-06-2003, 00:02

correct me if I am wrong:

ASCII has got the full rights over MSX BIOS
Microsoft has got the full rights over MSX BASIC and MSX-DOS (not sure about this)

MSX ASSOCIATIONS HAS FULL RIGHTS ABOUT MSX BIOS IN JAPAN. They are separated from ASCII due to the bad finacial situation in dutch we call sterfhuis constructie-finanial term-Microsoft MSX-Bios has copyright s for the rest of the world.
But as stated earlier why simply donot ask what is the price for it
I would suggest e.g. pay a xxx price for a legal bios as we did in the past
Pay for dos-2 by HSH was at least 120 euro and you were unlucky to be bought it fromparrow soft you had to be update it via MCM to get a legal bios for 50 euro extra.
Because the Sparrow soft dos-2 was strictly taken illegal .

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