Important note

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Van Edwin

Paragon (1182)

afbeelding van Edwin

22-08-2005, 22:51

I would nominate PSUs. My 8280 needed to have one of those fixed.

And cartridges+slots are a bit tricky as well if you don't use your machine for a while.

Apart from that I never had problem. Well, not counting physical violence done to a keyboard. Wink

Van HansO

Paladin (672)

afbeelding van HansO

23-08-2005, 13:31

I would nominate PSUs. My 8280 needed to have one of those fixed.

And cartridges+slots are a bit tricky as well if you don't use your machine for a while.

Apart from that I never had problem. Well, not counting physical violence done to a keyboard. Wink

Top 10 of things that I have seen go bad on MSX computers and other hobby computers:

1. Floppy drives like physical damage, wornout belts, dirt and dust, broken off diskheads. Depending on type easy to fix (belt) or easy to replace (Philips). The drives as used in the turboR are quite hard to replace, both physical and electronical.
2. Power supply, especially Philips NMS8250/55/80. Often goes bad at switching on the machine or machine getting too hot after many hours.Mostly fixed by replacing diodes or better a small switching powersupply.
3. Damaged slots, ranging from physical damage, bad connections due to dirt to damaged interface chips and (on MSX-1 mostly due to inserting/removing with power switched on) damaged vdp chip. Repair connections by cleaning. Vdp replacement is hard, but often it is just the clock signal and you can fix that with an external clock circuit like he 7 MHz kit for example.
4. Damaged joystick connectors Other connectors getting damaged., physical teared off from pcb or damaged interface chips.
5. Color or other video distortions. Most MSX machines have country dependent video circuitry (PAL, NTSC, SECAM, 50/60 HZ etc). Often sperate boards of mediocre quality with analog circuitry that can get slowly drifting out of the preferred setting.
6. Bad keys on the keyboard. Mostly dirt and easy to fix by cleaning. Some keyboards are not easy to fix though (e.g. Sony) due to wornout contact material.
7. Memory chips malfunctioning (quite often after a memory upgrade Tongue ), hard to repair
8. Physical damage like dropping on the floor, leading to hard to find bad connections on the pcb and such.
9. Burned out printer interface. On machines with a MSX engine a nightmare to repair without smd soldering equipment.
10. Apply 230V to a 110V imported Japanese machine: burned out power supply!

Special cases are machines modified/upgraded by non-professionals: bad solder connections, extra wires not connected anymore or too long wiring creating crosstalk etc.

Having access to a service manual helps!

Any electronic device will fail once, at an unexpected moment.
If I understand the current european laws around trade and garantuees, only companies are obliged to fix/replace/refund even secondhand goods. So if you buy from a private party an old machine like a 20 year old MSX machine and it works at the moment of the sale, you cant legally complain later when it stops functioning later. And what do you expect from a device that old?

Van Tanni

Hero (556)

afbeelding van Tanni

23-08-2005, 14:06

HansO: Your post is well appreciated!

Any electronic device will fail once, at an unexpected moment.
If I understand the current european laws around trade and garantuees, only companies are obliged to fix/replace/refund even secondhand goods. So if you buy from a private party an old machine like a 20 year old MSX machine and it works at the moment of the sale, you cant legally complain later when it stops functioning later. And what do you expect from a device that old?

That's this threat is all about!

The companies are obliged to fix/replace/refund stuff, even it is second hand, only within warranty periode?

Van cax

Prophet (3736)

afbeelding van cax

23-08-2005, 14:17

Well, HansO, none of the reasons of failure you gave is connected to electromigration mentioned by Tanni.
Most of them are rather examples of inaccurate usage, not of hard wearing.

If you don't insert cartridges into a switched on machine, don't solder on the board, don't drop your MSX etc. - it will work tens of years.

Van zett

Hero (608)

afbeelding van zett

23-08-2005, 14:33

take a hx-10 i can't distroy it best msx ever

Van Tanni

Hero (556)

afbeelding van Tanni

23-08-2005, 14:45

HansO wrote about memory chip malfunction. This could be due to a mistake while upgrading, but also due to electromigration. He also just wrote about the top ten issues, not mentioning all the rest. Malfunctions due to electromigration may be hard to detect. The device just don't work anymore, that's all. Regardless for what reason, what did you expect, the stuff is 10 to 20 years old, even more, thus most people will not care about. So it is unfair to blame somebody who sold you such a computer for selling you stuff which finally went defective after some short time of usage! That's the point. That's why I started this threat.

Any electronic device will fail once, at an unexpected moment.
Conclusion: Support the OCM, you never can be sure that your beloved MSX stuff will go on working tomorrow!

Van cax

Prophet (3736)

afbeelding van cax

23-08-2005, 14:52

No, the conclusion is: Modern electronics fails after 3-5 years of usage, old MSX-es still work after 20 years.

Van Tanni

Hero (556)

afbeelding van Tanni

23-08-2005, 15:01

No, the conclusion is: Modern electronics fails after 3-5 years of usage, old MSX-es still work after 20 years.
But suddenly they will fail! If not due to electromigration, than due to other reasons, depending on how and how often you used it.

Van HansO

Paladin (672)

afbeelding van HansO

23-08-2005, 15:13

Well, HansO, none of the reasons of failure you gave is connected to electromigration mentioned by Tanni.
Most of them are rather examples of inaccurate usage, not of hard wearing.

Indeed! MSX and other machines from the 80ties withstand time quite well.
Physical threats are the biggest danger: the user!
But heat is a slow killer, not only for the power supply. And switching on the power causes a short period of time where signals are out of standard values. Also various degradations occur in IC's that will lead to failure. Every device will once fail!

Van HansO

Paladin (672)

afbeelding van HansO

23-08-2005, 15:20

take a hx-10 i can't distroy it best msx ever
Many Toshiba HX-10's as sold in the Netherlands are in fact mediocre quality machines. Video is not the best quality since the video circuit was modified for the dutch market from the factory installed UK setting. The Toshiba (and other MSX-1 machines) were dumped in the Netherlands for low prices (350-400 guilders in 1985) after the failure of MSX in the UK market.
Build quality of the HX-10 is also not exceptional: I have repaired many with broken joystick connectors.

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