Moonsound trackers

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Door snout

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29-07-2004, 00:16

In this thread Wolf said: I see more future in a 'new' tracker made on PC, made *for* the Moonsound, that could control the Moonsound by using some -yet to be made- ethernet connection

snout reacts:

Uhm.. Why? We have Realfun and Meridian coming up, while MSD is back in action improving the Wave Editor, MBWave and perhaps even MBFM. I don't see the benefit of using the PC for music-cross-developments, only downsides to be honest.

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Van wolf_

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29-07-2004, 00:30

'coming up' it takes a high-spec MSX coder years to make those trackers.. it doesn't need a hi-spec coder to make such a tracker in a month time on PC. It takes asm on MSX to realise that .. it takes Basic, or C++ or Pascal on PC to realise it. It only takes a hi-spec MSX coder to make a seperate player for MSX, but if the format doesn't change, this needs to be done only once..
The only thing you need to do is making some typical tracker-interface with hotkeys and handy stuff like auto-completion. I spent some few weeks on something exactly like this in Blitz+ (a Basic/C++ hybrid), so I know what I'm talking about. A typical pattern editor takes a week max, and that week also includes the trial/error with screen-coordinates. if you'd attended DevCon03, you could see it in action, actually it's on one of the photos Smile (the gold-coloured stuff on my TFT)

An MSX screen has .. dunno exactly 23 rows on the screen (?) .. a typical PC screen has 64++ possible textrows (depending on the resolution/fontsize ofcourse).

PC trackers for Moonsound would integrate perfectly with fast audio editors on PC.. There's also simply more memory available for your app to add handy editing features. I'm not saying that the fileformat will be bigger.. just think of intelligent stuff like macros.

It's quite easy to make at least something easy, which could result in many ppl taking up the quest, rather than only a very few ppl.

Anyway.. name some of the downsides, Snøut Smile

Van anonymous

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29-07-2004, 00:34

I wonder how you would cope with the latency that ethernet introduces...

Van wolf_

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29-07-2004, 00:37

how much latency would that be ?

Van snout

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29-07-2004, 00:38

'coming up' it takes a high-spec MSX coder years to make those trackers.. it doesn't need a hi-spec coder to make such a tracker in a month time on PC.So uhm, how long have we been waiting for IT3 already? Smile

An MSX screen has .. dunno exactly 23 rows on the screen (?) .. a typical PC screen has 64++ possible textrows (depending on the resolution/fontsize ofcourse).Okay, now there's a benefit. So lets use the GFX9000 Tongue

Anyway.. name some of the downsides, Snøut SmileAt the moment it is impossible to interface with the Moonsound from PC. So you'd have to rely on emulation (which is far from perfect) or from future hardware developments that take even much, much, much longer to develop than an ASM-coded Moonsound tracker for MSX could possibly take.

If I'm not mistaken Sunrise started development of their Ethernet interface back in 1612 and they are still only working on its memory mapper (no offense, Rob!). Then you still don't know if and how you can use the Ethernet interface (or RS232, or joynet, or....) to interface with the Moonsound correctly. You need an ASM coder for that, who could, in the same timespan (without having to rely on hardware developments that have not been finished yet) create a nifty tracker for you as well.

Connecting the Moonsound to the MSX Game Reader sounds like a nice idea, but the architecture of the Game Reader doesn't support I/O and I doubt the Sunrise edition will. So, there you are. A cool app, but still no way to get the sounds from a real Moonsound....

Don't get me wrong, but MBWave and MBFM are already there and 'fairly easy' to be improved, and Meridian and RealFun have progressed quite a lot already. If we can manage to motivate MSD, Michiel de Vries and/or Sjoerd, we might end up with 4 nice Moonsounds trackers that really can get the job done. I think focussing on those trackers is more likely to get 'quick results' than focussing on cross-development in this matter.

Van Sky_hawk

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29-07-2004, 00:57

de bitewise USB <-> msx interface zou hier uitkomst kunnen bieden,
het is geen ethernet natuurlijk, maar heeft ook niet die latency.
(wat overigens ook niet echt een probleem is, als je de muziek
een paar seconden buffered)

Ik ben eigenlijk erg benieuwd naar de status van dit project en zou ik graag aan meewerken, maar email naar frits hilderink (een van de mensen die aan het project meewerkt) heeft tot nu niets opgeleverd, behalve "er wordt hard aan gewerkt om een produceerbare versie te maken"

Weet iemand hier meer van ?

Jan

Van anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

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29-07-2004, 01:00

Please use english in this forum.

And no, it would not help. The Bitwise USB floppy interface is not a USB connection port for MSX. It's a diskdrive interface that connects to a USB port on PC. The MSX only sees a diskdrive.
(at least this is as far as I understand it)

Van anonymous

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29-07-2004, 01:07

You need an ASM coder for that, who could, in the same timespan (without having to rely on hardware developments that have not been finished yet) create a nifty tracker for you as well.
Yeah, pay me Wink

Van wolf_

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29-07-2004, 01:08

So uhm, how long have we been waiting for IT3 already? Smile

IT3 won't be a simple&fast one-shot scene-app, so comparing those 2 is moose-piss ('bullshit' is so old-fashioned Smile ) One of the end-goals is dedicated hardware (something like this: http://www.fairlightau.com/resources/images/products/constellation_big2.jpg ) IT3 simply migrated from a small-scale scene app to something big. You don't code something like that in a week..

Okay, now there's a benefit. So lets use the GFX9000 :P

Uh .. do you hate your valuable eyes that much? :)

At the moment it is impossible to interface with the Moonsound from PC.

That's why my idea for an xdev tracker was hypothetical.. I'd like to invite Sunrise here to say something about the current state on their ethernet-thingy.

If I'm not mistaken Sunrise started development of their Ethernet interface back in 1612 and they are still only working on its memory mapper (no offense, Rob!). Then you still don't know if and how you can use the Ethernet interface (or RS232, or joynet, or....) to interface with the Moonsound correctly. You need an ASM coder for that, who could, in the same timespan (without having to rely on hardware developments that have not been finished yet) create a nifty tracker for you as well.

That 'bridge' as I would call it has to be coded only once. Once you have that bridge that communicates between the ethernet and the Moonsound you're done I guess. It's up to the software (msx or pc) to communicate to that bridge..
(dunno for sure tho .. I'm not mr. techtalk here :) )

Don't get me wrong, but MBWave and MBFM are already there and 'fairly easy' to be improved

Talk more often with MSD then :) Yeah, a solo-button, maybe a new hotkey here and there.. that's not the bottleneck .. but 'expanding' the amount of wave-channels to 24, in MBFM, is something different as all memory-adresses are hard-coded in the original source :) (not really a smart move, but that's the way it is now ..)
Currently MBFM is unstable .. and while I enjoyed cooking some nice swingin' tune some weeks ago in MBFM with 128kb, I consider doing it again in mbwave with 640kb. The Snowfall demo by Infinite is even another story, I couldn't edit the FM voices for the simple reason that entering the voice editor crashes the tune after I pressed F1 (play) again.
MBwave needs some checks as well, as pressing esc and f1 too fast after each other tends to crash the system as well. (I think that one is being taken care of as we speak)

.. and Meridian and RealFun have progressed quite a lot already. If we can manage to motivate MSD, Michiel de Vries and/or Sjoerd, we might end up with 4 nice Moonsounds trackers that really can get the job done. I think focussing on those trackers is more likely to get 'quick results' than focussing on cross-development in this matter.

It's all so risky and depending.. We're now depending on 3 persons for four apps. One of them is MSD who codes @ daytime for his job, meaning he'll prolly do something more relaxing in the evenings, Michiel runs a typical 24/7 household with babies & stuff, and Sjoerd ... .. Sjoerd, where is he ? :)

Van anonymous

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29-07-2004, 01:17

Talk more often with MSD then Smile Yeah, a solo-button, maybe a new hotkey here and there.. that's not the bottleneck .. but 'expanding' the amount of wave-channels to 24, in MBFM, is something different as all memory-adresses are hard-coded in the original source Smile (not really a smart move, but that's the way it is now ..)
Seriously, I don't know what MSD is telling you, but I can't imagine that being so hard to change.

It's all so risky and depending.. We're now depending on 3 persons for four apps.
Depending on a not yet existing hardware solution is not risky?

Van wolf_

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29-07-2004, 01:24

Depending on a not yet existing hardware solution is not risky?
Nothing is perfect.. but I don't think the amount of hi-spec coders on MSX will grow, I also don't think the potential coding-time of the currently available hi-spec coders will grow, as they grow older and are moving to different phases of their life. But I do think that there's always some hardware under development here and there. So, no, there's no ethernet *now* .. but I've no doubt it will eventually come.
Ofcourse there's no guarantee for any ethernet hardware .. but then again, there's also no guarantee for a healthy life anyway Smile

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