MSX2 upgrade available for One Chip MSX

van Latok op 03-08-2005, 19:26
Onderwerp: MSX Revival
Talen:

Some days ago, Bazix opened a FAQ regarding the upcoming new MSX computer with its worktitle 'One Chip MSX'. Right here you can suggest a definitive name for the new system.

Today, ASCII has announced that there will be available an MSX2 upgrade for the One Chip MSX computer, apparently on the same date as the release of the new MSX itself. It's yet unclear to what extent this upgrade will include peripherals such as MSX-MUSIC, FAT16, MEGA-SCSI and MSX-DOS2. The upgrade will be sold for 3000 yen (VAT not included). The VHDL data for the MSX2 comes on a CD-ROM and can be loaded inside the FPGA by copying the VHDL data onto the SD card and from there, write it to the FPGA itself.

We don't have information yet on whether Bazix is going to offer this MSX2 update as well and if they will, when. Of course, we will keep you updated.

Relevant link: ASCII One Chip MSX information page

Reacties (88)

Van tfh

Prophet (3008)

afbeelding van tfh

03-08-2005, 19:56

Well.. I guess ASCII really intends to make money out of this. Personally, I think they should include it in the original package...

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

03-08-2005, 20:02

if I was delaying my preorder just because i needs to have the money first.... now i see more FAR to buy the 1CM...

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

03-08-2005, 20:11

I wonders how fast the upgrade CD will reachs the p2p!!!!

Within 24hrs.. i guess

Van iamweasel2

Paladin (685)

afbeelding van iamweasel2

03-08-2005, 20:14

Is the famous cable needed to link the OCM with a PC in order to reload the OCM when things go wrong included in this msx2 upgrade kit as well?

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

03-08-2005, 20:17

I not thinks so!

it is only a CD iirc

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

03-08-2005, 20:23

The ultimate package would indeed be: msx2, 'the' cable, all together for 189 euro incl. VAT Smile

Van Leo

Paragon (1236)

afbeelding van Leo

03-08-2005, 20:25

So this upgrade is just a binary file ...

Van NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5889)

afbeelding van NYYRIKKI

03-08-2005, 20:26

Weird way to promote "open source hardware".

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

03-08-2005, 20:37

For me is the ultimate package, msx1 including fixed +12v and -12v, a vgacable or svhs cable, sd-card included,cd-rom with code, manual.
And after that prepared to pay the update to MSX-2

Van Ivan

Ascended (9299)

afbeelding van Ivan

03-08-2005, 21:07

We already knew that the MSX2 upgrade would not be free (at least the "official" one presented by ASCII):

http://www.bazix.nl/faq_will_the_msx2_upgrade_be_free.html

BTW, what about "...which will include a special cable needed to perform the upgrade safely..."?.

The question is: if someone developes another MSX2 upgrade, can he/she distribute it freely?

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

03-08-2005, 21:26

an usb cable?..............................

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

afbeelding van sunrise

03-08-2005, 21:54

Why an usb cable. Since there are no drivers for supporting external devices via usb, seems that not quite necessary to let your possible purchase work

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

03-08-2005, 22:35

what kind of cable r they talking about an old fasion paralel cable to 40 pin on 1chpcb? how save is it if a
noob connects the cable in the wrong way Smile POOF bye bye 1 chip msx?

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

03-08-2005, 22:37

or a save solution a mmc card...

Van Sander

Founder (1866)

afbeelding van Sander

03-08-2005, 23:16

3000 yen, that's about 22 euro's. Not much for an upgrade to MSX2.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

03-08-2005, 23:36

Can that upgraded be included in the assembling then? as in: default price increases with 3000 yen..

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

04-08-2005, 02:15

well if 22 euro's is to much you can share with 3 friends thrn it costs you 5,50 Smile

Van Sama

Ambassador (2061)

afbeelding van Sama

04-08-2005, 03:21

I'm afraid that's what they call 'piracy' Tongue

Van BiFi

Enlighted (4348)

afbeelding van BiFi

04-08-2005, 06:35

and sharing expences for... say... the electricity bill? also piracy? Wink

Van NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5889)

afbeelding van NYYRIKKI

04-08-2005, 09:02

Actually I think, that at least one of the reasons for 3000 yen price is that MSX2 ROM's are not free.

Van ro

Scribe (4542)

afbeelding van ro

04-08-2005, 09:44

Okay, but if I do own an MSX I can use those ROM's (a copy for own perpose) right? so why would I pay for something I already got?

Van Bart

Paragon (1422)

afbeelding van Bart

04-08-2005, 12:18

@Ro, you're not paying for something you've already got.. Or do you have MSX2 vhdl code for the OCM laying around somewhere?

@BiFi, apples and oranges... You can come up with a better comparison than that one can't you?

Anyway, 22 fucking euro's for a MSX2 version. That's a real nice deal ASCII proposes here IMHO. But we know by now that ASCII can't do anything right in the eyes of some beholders...

Van Arjan

Paladin (747)

afbeelding van Arjan

04-08-2005, 15:36

well, I guess people rather see a free update, especially when the update is going to be released at the same day as the OCM. But it's still a must-have for me, and even more so if it will include *the* cable Smile

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

04-08-2005, 17:15

BART WROTE: Anyway, 22 fucking euro's for a MSX2 version. That's a real nice deal ASCII proposes here IMHO. But we know by now that ASCII can't do anything right in the eyes of some beholders...

No, is not a FUCKING NICE DEAL

Van Latok

msx guru (3843)

afbeelding van Latok

04-08-2005, 17:46

Arjan, in the Bazix FAQ I've read that the cable will not be included in the OCM package. There will be a special cable included in the MSX2 upgrade set, though. Are we talking about the same cable here? Am a bit confused now.

Van Arjan

Paladin (747)

afbeelding van Arjan

04-08-2005, 17:55

I was talking about the upgrade to MSX2. The cable I was referring to stems from http://www.bazix.nl/faq_will_the_msx2_upgrade_be_free.html

Van SKiLLa

Expert (97)

afbeelding van SKiLLa

04-08-2005, 19:48

I think it's bad not to include the MSX2 VHDL in the package. I'm not interested in a OCM MSX1, I want at least a 'full' MSX2 !
Having to pay an extra 22 euro is quite a lot - after just spending a 189 euro ! I would have preferred an out-of-the-box OCM MSX2 since
I'm not intereseted in 'only' a MSX1 (and some other platforms - like NES - which I probably wouldn't use).

Why not ship it as a MSX2 for - let's say - 199 euro ? IMHO dumb of ASCII since the MSX2 upgrade will definitely be available on P2P
networks within 24 hours. And for most buyers - after paying a 189 euro - the seduction to download an illegal copy for free will be great.

ASCII could easily prevent this piracy and still make a little money by including the MSX2 upgrade for just a few bucks extra.
Having to pay for 2+ or TurboR features seems fair, but having to pay extra for MSX2 emulation does not. I'd call MSX2 emulation the 'minimal configuration' for a 189 euro to make it interesting for the majority.

Van Leo

Paragon (1236)

afbeelding van Leo

04-08-2005, 20:10

Yes there is quite a lot of games and software for MSX2 , not having MSX2 out of the box , one miss most of MSX spirit.
About paying 22 euros for MSX2 , it oculd be nice if the cable was an option of the bundle
...
I took a look at the MSX ESE project homepage, there one can download the VHDL file for V9938.
I believe it may be plugged inside OCM VHDL instead of MSX1 VDP.

Van iamweasel2

Paladin (685)

afbeelding van iamweasel2

04-08-2005, 20:31

But how good is this v9938 vhdl code in ESE's page? Is it the same being offered in OCM upgrade kit?

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

04-08-2005, 20:37

man! is just the source code... maybe an outdated version

but is not too easy... you needs to compile it with all other parts and all the parts needs to fits in a scheme....

Van poke-1,170

Paragon (1765)

afbeelding van poke-1,170

05-08-2005, 04:11

don't see the point realy...if they allready have it as an msx2 then why put it out as msx1? why not implement the 2 right away?
kinda strange to offer that right on it's release...strange that they have been developing it at the same time then, they could have said that from the beginning then ,that it was planned to be msx2...it's not that the msx 2 code was written last week or something

Van Latok

msx guru (3843)

afbeelding van Latok

05-08-2005, 09:04

I tend to agree. Maybe adding 10 extra euros to the OCM package, but still....MSX2 support is kinda essential and selling it as an MSX1 config isn't the smartest move. They should have expected people nagging about the MSX1. And I wonder if offering an MSX2 update on the very same day as the release of the OCM itself just doesn't make things worse....

And what's still nagging me is the August 20th deadline. I expect they will extend the deadline until further notice. What other options do they have? They can't just produce the device anyway, what was all the 5000 fuzz about then?

Still, I don't really mind, I want the hardware and those updates are coming our way anyway. This is a great project which I can only be fucking optimistic about. It's just the way they are marketing the whole thing. I have doubts about that. It's all about feelings, isn't it? Maybe it's a cultural thing. I wonder if in Japan, potential customers agree with some of the critisism.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

05-08-2005, 10:38

Perhaps in JP it's all about 'retro', and the MSX2 might not be 'retro' enough.. Smile

Nonetheless, upon its release, the 1cm should be a full MSX2 indeed...

Van Meits

Scribe (6461)

afbeelding van Meits

05-08-2005, 12:26

If they skip the MSX1 part and make it MSX2 right away for the same cash, the pre-order might increase a lot.

I don't know about japanese cultures, but in some cultures customers are but dumb drones which should eat what they're given. If the japanese culture is like that (which i think it is, otherwise there would already be 100% specs available right away), they're having a narrowminded marketing strategy, cuz on this one they can't do without foreign countries.

Forgot the exact price of 'the cable', but really, it's a rediculous price. No one can deny that.
And really, what the heck is this MSX2 making the costprice rise 20 euros. It should have been implemented in the costprice right away. Isn't it just normal that people who buy hardware get free firmware updates all the time? And doesn't a software update come free all the time either? Yup, cuz you payed for that initially.

My guess is they calculated the wrong price in the beginning. Not quite handy.

Still it's great that the device is being produced (make that an 'if', cuz Ascii's strategy and demands made me rather sceptic), but i'll pass... I already have an MSX Smile

In my optics, they'd better do it this way:

- Go for MSX2 right away
- Use a standard cable for connection to PC for updates (why not that USB port, cuz it's there already)
- Raise the sales price to 210 euros before mentioning this 189 (the just were too narrow on that)

That'd wipe out quite some scepticism, and pull way more customers to their side of the line already.

Van snout

Ascended (15184)

afbeelding van snout

05-08-2005, 12:59

I think a good reason for ASCII not to increase the price of the OCM, adding MSX2 support out-of-the-box is that they'd have to email more than 2600 customers, asking if they would mind paying more for the MSX2 version. Quite a bit of work (time and money) to process all the mails that would follow such a decision.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

05-08-2005, 13:13

euh, those names... are in some database I guess? As in: automated mailing? Or is some office-kid manually sending all the 2600 emails one by one? Smile

Van Latok

msx guru (3843)

afbeelding van Latok

05-08-2005, 13:46

I agree with snout. It is not doable contacting all these pre orders. Would be an administrative mess. I'd say they should've waited some more months before even starting the OCM pre order. That's where it went 'wrong', if we should use this word, which I rather don't, because this project doesn't deserve such negativity Smile

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

05-08-2005, 14:39

is just time...

and obviously not that ammount of money....

Van AuroraMSX

Paragon (1902)

afbeelding van AuroraMSX

05-08-2005, 15:21

And what's still nagging me is the August 20th deadline. I expect they will extend the deadline until further notice. What other options do they have? They can't just produce the device anyway, what was all the 5000 fuzz about then?

It is possible that ASCII reserved a time slot at the factory for producing the 1CMs and therefor needs to have that 5000 pre-orders before the start of the time slot. If ASCII is not production-ready by that time, it will mean that the factory comes to a stand-still, which is a costly operation. in that case it's even possible that ASCII needs to rise the bar upto e.g 6000 units, to compensate for the extra costs.

Van Arjan

Paladin (747)

afbeelding van Arjan

05-08-2005, 17:04

Wolf: sending everybody an email doesn't take that much time, however processing all answers is very time consuming.

The only reason I see for selling an upgrade to MSX2 separately instead of delivering MSX2 compatibility out of the box is that they want to make some money for all the extra effort they've done to make it all possible, which is very reasonable in my opinion (it's a business, it's not for charity).

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

05-08-2005, 18:13

well, it is official now... i am out of spare money for the 1CM

I needs atleast 1 month more for to have the money...

So, I can't do a preorder if is needed to pay in august or beggining of sept.

Van Latok

msx guru (3843)

afbeelding van Latok

05-08-2005, 19:14

There is some 'thing' added to the ASCII One Chip information page.....The casing?

Van snout

Ascended (15184)

afbeelding van snout

05-08-2005, 19:20

flyguille: As we already had concluded in an earlier discussion, you can hold Bazix and MSXA responsible for many things, but not for your financial situation. Besides, if you have a question to Bazix you can always contact them by e-mail.

As for the casing on the OCM page, as was the case with the GameReader, this is just a rough indication of what it will look like, the final product will probably be announced soon and looks a lot better Wink

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

05-08-2005, 20:09

sure snout.... but... why you talks in third person?

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

05-08-2005, 20:23

fly: Why do you care about that in the first place?

Not in a hundred years can I be interested in who is who, nor would I be interested in *kuch* investigating Bazix-trademarks (done by you-know-who Big smile ). I rather do something useful..

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

05-08-2005, 22:28

i don't care, but sounds weird

Van Sama

Ambassador (2061)

afbeelding van Sama

05-08-2005, 23:03

The thing that has been added to the ASCII page is nothing more than a 'the casing COULD look like this' Smile. Probably to avoid misunderstandings Smile

@Fly: snout was probably talking in third person because some people make a sport out of nagging about conflicts of interest and such Tongue Apart from that, it CAN be confusing stating 'send us a mail' when on MRC Smile

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

05-08-2005, 23:18

aaahhh , ok Rikusu!

anyway I ....am sad because is like... if I can't buy a 1cm is like I am out .... And I want to buy one... but my budget within one month don't allowme to buy one... just this morning I did the accountant to check if i can or not.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

05-08-2005, 23:26

ahwell, perhaps someone gets disappointed @ the 1cm for some reason, and sells it 2nd-hand ..

Van boukichi

Resident (33)

afbeelding van boukichi

06-08-2005, 11:57

btw,it seems that MSX2 ugrade kit things disappeared from OCM site.

I imagine a number of factors Smile

Van Latok

msx guru (3843)

afbeelding van Latok

06-08-2005, 12:29

Indeed. So after suddenly putting up a 'casing' for the OCM which of course suggests it's the final thing (else they should have included this concept casing right from the beginning), they now withdraw the MSX2 upgrade from the information page. What does this mean? Will it be available? Probably so. At the same time as the launch of the OCM itself?

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

06-08-2005, 17:35

well an msx2 upgrade on mmc would also be possible a 128mb card is not so much
about 22 euros?

Van POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

afbeelding van POISONIC

06-08-2005, 17:40

"By NYYRIKKI on August 04 2005, 09:02
Actually I think, that at least one of the reasons for 3000 yen price is that MSX2 ROM's are not free."

well i got all msx2 roms already.......

a real msxer has the right to use them if he has a msx2............... because he already owns a rom set in his msx2 right Smile

its not illigal to copy a rom or get a rom if you have the original..........

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 18:31

atleast that you want to use your original MSX2 and the 1CM at the same time....

legally you can do any copy that you want... but, you can use it one time at once....

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 18:32

so, no to play NETWORK's games in home with the same ROM licence

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

06-08-2005, 18:48

Is an MSX2 ROM the same as MSX2 VHDL ?

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 19:45

i thought that the OCM comes with C-BIOS or something... because in other way will be illegal to sell it without a licence of microsoft

Van snout

Ascended (15184)

afbeelding van snout

06-08-2005, 19:59

The MSX2 ROM is not similar to MSX2 VHDL. The ROM is 'just' the internal software (BIOS), the VHDL code describes the entire circuitry of all the chips implemented in the MSX2 computer and the way they are connected to each other, in order to let the FPGA chip function as if it was a real MSX2 computer. Either way, even the ROMs used in the OCM are slightly different from the original MSX2 ROMs. Or does your MSX2 computer come with an internal MegaSCSI, DOS2, Secure Digital and FAT16 support? Smile

As for Microsoft: I'm sorry to disappoint you flyguille, but -representing MSX Association- Bazix is entitled to sell (and sublicence) products that contain the MSX System ROMs and/or use the MSX trademark worldwide. There's nothing illegal about it.

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 20:08

ahhhh... ok... now I uderstand... so the MSXA does a deal with microsoft, for to modify and to sell the MSXBIOS/BASIC?

or I am wrong?

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 20:11

or the OCM come with a new MSXBIOS completely programmed from zero?

I asks that because the last thing about that I readed is that the MSXA can't to sell the MSXBIOS outside of japan.... IIRC.

but maybe i am wrong and the thing is different....

can you snout as represetant of BAZIX explain a bit?

Van snout

Ascended (15184)

afbeelding van snout

06-08-2005, 20:59

flyguille: by the end of 2003 the first steps were taken to allow legal distribution of the MSX-BIOS outside of Japan. Bazix would not have been launched if those steps would not have resulted in a succesful outcome. In other words: as I stated before, Bazix is entitled to sell or sublicense the MSX-BIOS and trademark worldwide.

The MSX2 BIOS has therefor not been reprogrammed from scratch, but has undergone some small adaptations/additions in order to make the new One Chip MSX support secure digital, DOS2 and FAT16.

Van flyguille

Prophet (3028)

afbeelding van flyguille

06-08-2005, 21:38

ahh.. thanks by the answer.... I never heard about a deal ... so, GREAT!!! Big smile

Van SLotman

Paragon (1238)

afbeelding van SLotman

07-08-2005, 15:37

As I said from the beggining, the OCM should be MSX2 from factory... if they sold 2600 units and want to sell more, add that CD-ROM for free in the package *so they wont loose money*

Then you won't have to "process" 2600 emails (common, it's not THAT much work either - Just ask to reply with "YES" or "NO" on the subject or setup a form on the site for registered buyers and you're done)

I still hope for this to turn around, the OCM coming with MSX2 and the cable... maybe if one week left and they havent sold enough OCMs... Smile)

Van poke-1,170

Paragon (1765)

afbeelding van poke-1,170

07-08-2005, 16:38

And then again....when I was a kid for SURE the msx costed way more then 200 euros.
And that was a simple msx2,8220. No diskdrives no nothing.
Sadly,the OCM won't come with the built in "MSX DESIGNER BY A COENE" as the 8220 did,
apart from that...
anyone tell me where to get BRAND NEW MSX computers for only 200 bucks.
Seeing the ridiculous amount of money people in Spain ask on E-bay for some lame msx1,
200 bucks seems peanuts to me if you want to buy a new msx.

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (6016)

afbeelding van mars2000you

07-08-2005, 17:00

In 1983, the MSX2 VDP was not ready, that's the reason why the MSX1 was first released. But it was not fully corresponding to Kay Nishi's dreams : for him, the real MSX is the MSX2. And that's also the point of view of a great part of the MSX community. (MSX2+ and Turbo-R are extensions of the MSX2 concept)

So now in 2005, the only good question concerns thez Ascii's strategy : if the MSX2 is the real MSX (following Kay Nishi), why release a MSX1 OCM ?

It's probably too late to change the curse of events : Ascii will fall in his own trap (no 5000 pre-orders for a MSX1 OCM). If they had proposed directly a MSX2 OCM, the situation should be different.

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 18:09

the real msx is msx2??? (why didn't get the msx2 by it's release a better soundchip then only psg????) music-module inside would have be nice!!!! But I think that was too expensive???
I like the msx2,but 7mhz and another soundchip would have been nice at that time

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (6016)

afbeelding van mars2000you

07-08-2005, 18:15

Yes, MSX-AUDIO was too expensive, especially the Panasonic module . That's why it was not added to MSX2 (it was only an option in the MSX2 specifications).

For the same reasons, Panasonic has created MSX-MUSIC, that is a light version of MSX-AUDIO without the sampling feature. MSX-MUSIC is part of the MSX2+ and Turbo-R specifications.

But I agree with you : MSX-AUDIO is better than MSX-MUSIC.

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (6016)

afbeelding van mars2000you

07-08-2005, 18:19

A little correction :

MSX-AUDIO and MSX-MUSIC are both created by Yamaha and Panasonic.

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 18:48

Msx-music was released in 1988, I could think of bringing a better soundchip at that time(what has it better then the music module? In 1988 the Amiga was already 1 year relleashed and had much better music then fm-pac,why not put that amiga soundchip in the 2+ or turbo-r??

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

07-08-2005, 19:02

But I agree with you : MSX-AUDIO is better than MSX-MUSIC.

Not better, not worse, but different.

Microcabin's music simply dies on the MSX-Audio! Generally I've the idea that the FM-Pac fits games better.. some cuteness-factor orso..

It's the extra operator-shape on the FM-Pac that does the trick.

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 19:57

Wolf, don't you think bringing the fm-pac in 1988 was a bit too late? For instance, the amiga was way better in 1987

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 20:04

offtopic: benoit did you ask dvik about bluemsx on a laptop???

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (6016)

afbeelding van mars2000you

07-08-2005, 20:08

Solideric : Yes, I've sent him an email, but he's now in Sweden (holidays time). So, be patient ...

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

07-08-2005, 20:14

Everything on MSX is late .. less gfx-power compared to competitors, less cpu, less memory.. less, less.. Other systems were more expensive perhaps, but also better. If ppl buy the better system en mass (even if it's purely for the office), then it becomes cheap.. it's simply how the market works..

Dunno about the music tho, at least the standard PSG is outdated, but I wouldn't want to replace the FM-Pac with the Amiga's 4 mod-channels for example. Esp. with the Moonsound I've the idea that music is the era in which the MSX runs circles around other retros..

At least the MSX2 should've had *some* advanced soundchip standard, being either a MusMod or an FM-Pac ..

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (6016)

afbeelding van mars2000you

07-08-2005, 20:15

Wolf : ehmm ... I've should have said that MSX-AUDIO is generally better than MSX-MUSIC.

Actually, I prefer an intelligent using of both soundchips, as it is the case on the Muzax serie for example. And as you have suggested, Microcabin has made an intelligent using of PSG + MSX-MUSIC sounds. So, many things are in the artist's hands Smile

I know that you can prefer MoonSound (and you are very good !), but MSX-MUSIC + MSX-AUDIO is also a must for the real MSX music fans.

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 20:24

thanks benoit for sending the mail to dvik

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 20:27

Wolf, I prefer the moonsound above the amiga 4 channel mods.....but don't the amiga soundchip have a fm part too? I prefer amiga mods above fm-pac and music-module ^_^ (hey here are the smiley's again) Wink

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9906)

afbeelding van wolf_

07-08-2005, 20:32

dunno, iirc only sample-channels .. or soft-FM perhaps, but even the PSG can do that, in 12bit, as long as the z80 can cope Smile

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 21:18

and we all know that's not too long Wink

Van Edwin

Paragon (1182)

afbeelding van Edwin

07-08-2005, 23:30

Amiga just had 4 8bit sample channels. 2 on the left channel and two on the right. Max sampling rate of 11Khz IIRC. So it was really rather limited. Although some apps used 8 or more channels with mixing (however far that gets you with 8bit/11KHz). Although some were able to do miracles with it though.

Wolf: No 12bit, way less because of duplicates.

Van SolidEric

Champion (332)

afbeelding van SolidEric

07-08-2005, 23:40

Edwin: I thought Amiga had 8 bits 22khz samples(almost sure about that)

Van Edwin

Paragon (1182)

afbeelding van Edwin

07-08-2005, 23:59

Could be, it's been at least a decade since I've seen one. I can't quite remember whether the 11KHz was the sampling frequency or the sound frequency.

Van poke-1,170

Paragon (1765)

afbeelding van poke-1,170

08-08-2005, 02:51

heh...more then miracles on the amiga...Musicwise the amiga at least went ahead in time and didnt remain stuck in the 80's.
There's the amazing stuff by martin ivesson, who later on made all the music for tomb raider. His stuff as nuke (anarchy/melon design)
is quite amazing, a lot of funk and jazz.And I can add a list the size of manhattan of good composers on the amiga Smile
If you do care about this, check http://exotica.fix.no/frames.html
use deliplayer and you're good to go

Van iamweasel2

Paladin (685)

afbeelding van iamweasel2

08-08-2005, 18:44

I think we need to be reasonable. Of course I would like OCM to come with the cable, but if it is that expensive, we can't expect a commercial company to ship his product with it without raising the price of the product. That said, I believe msx users would find a way to have a cheaper cable, maybe building one themselves. I understand MSXA position about the cable, but I will never understand why not giving the MSX2 upgrade kit to those that already bought OCM. We all know that OCM should be (at least) MSX2 since the beginning. As a matter of fact, a MSX2+ or even a Turbo-R would be ok as the first release of OCM, since these are all classic MSX. What should be charged as an upgrade, in my opinion, would be things that weren't available at the time ASCII dropped MSX, like MoonSound, V9990, advram, an enhanced z80 or VDP, and of course, the vhdl code to the new MSX3 standard. That's what I believe msx users would expect as an upgrade kit. People complain about the actual status of OCM because we thought ASCII would release not just a new MSX1 model, but the sucessor of Turbo-R. I remember some years ago that people quoted Nishi saying that 'ASCII could make a 100 mhz z80'. People were excited about the project because it would bring us new stuff, not just old stuff packaged as a new computer. Ok, I know it's FPGA, and I believe it's cool, but let's face it: most people doesn't want to deal with hardware, they just want to use the MSX, make softwares, play games and that's it. If we had so many pepole able to code vhdl as MSXA may believe, we would have many OCM's available already, but the fact is that up until now,I just heard about 2 projects: ESE and one from Dal Poz. At least to me, that fact shows that, although there are msx users who will be able to modify VHDL code that comes with OCM, it's a really small number, and most people will depend on MSXA to upgrade OCM. And if just a MSX2 kit costs around US$ 30, I don't know how much would cost the upgrade to a MSX3 with all the things we thought it would be available in OCM at first place...

Van snout

Ascended (15184)

afbeelding van snout

09-08-2005, 11:40

THanks for your elaborate post, iamweasel. It's highly appreciated. One thing I'd like to reply to is the doubt you have on people starting to develop on FPGA. As you might know, there are only a few people actively developing new hardware for MSX as it is today. Most of them are facing with high costs of developing a new product and, due to the small audience, relatively high production costs (and thus sale prices). The FPGA approach takes the cost problem away. Afaik most current MSX hardware developers have some experience in VHDL, while other MSX users do so as well. Even though the amount of 'virtual hardware' developers might remain very small, I think we are likely to get an increase of new MSX enhancements in VHDL.

Van Manuel

Ascended (18253)

afbeelding van Manuel

09-08-2005, 14:42

mars2000you: note that MSX-MUSIC was still optional in the MSX2+ standard and only became part of the standard with the turboR.

Anyway, I agree that the MSX2 stuff is really important. Important enough to postpone the deadline (if possible) and ask everyone who ordered if they want to have the MSX2 option from the start. I also believe this will greatly increase the number of preorders!

</my opinion>

Van [D-Tail]

Ascended (8255)

afbeelding van [D-Tail]

15-08-2005, 21:57

With this new upgrade kit, how many gates are left in the FPGA chip? Can it still be expanded with MSX2+ or turboR-capabilities? I'm really curious!

Van BiFi

Enlighted (4348)

afbeelding van BiFi

17-08-2005, 15:42

Funny Manuel... I doubt MSX-MUSIC becoming part of the standard, but you could call it that way since the only existing turboR types (which are just 2) actually have MSX-MUSIC built in... Wink