WOOMB - There it is!

by Latok on 17-10-2006, 01:08
Topic: MSX Revival
Languages:

Tonight, Bazix have launched their new retro gaming service WOOMB.net, which was first announced on the MSX fair in Bussum, more than 2 years ago. WOOMB is the English counterpart of D4 Enterprise's Amusement Center, on which a large collection of MSX and other retro games are already available. WOOMB launches with the following MSX games:

The amount of games available at WOOMB is to grow with titles from Europe and the USA, as well as Japanese titles already available in Project EGG and EGG PLUS!. All games offered in WOOMB come with a manual in PDF format and, if needed, both the game and manual have been translated to English. Contrary to the Japanese variations of WOOMB, it is possible to buy games without taking a subscription.

Relevant link: WOOMB.net

Comments (99)

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1756)

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17-10-2006, 01:24

By dvik

Prophet (2200)

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17-10-2006, 01:45

Cool Smile I assume the games are played in MSX-PLAYer by default but if I buy a game can I play it in other emulators or on real hardware as well?

By Algorythms

Champion (285)

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17-10-2006, 01:46

Congrats.

But one big and important question: Why are the games not available for real MSX's? Seems pretty weird to release a new msx, but the games you need a PC to use.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

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17-10-2006, 01:47

Let's wait now for the "normal" dsk versions (for the translated games of course) Tongue

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

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17-10-2006, 02:22

French version of these news on Passion MSX : http://www.passionmsx.org :)

By [D-Tail]

Ascended (8232)

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17-10-2006, 06:27

Woei Smile

By Patsie

Master (248)

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17-10-2006, 08:48

Three questions:
Since these games can now be officially bought again, does this mean that Woomb/Bazix will actively (pur)sue all freely downloadable (non translated) versions and persons sharing them?
While I greatly appreciate the translation on some of the games having lots of japanese text, some games (say Zanac) hardly need any translation at all. Why did you choose these games?
If I understand correctly from your FAQ, you can only download/play games via the Woomb-Launcher, which is only available for Windows. What about us Linux and/or OSX users?

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

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17-10-2006, 08:54

@Patsie - surely they're not going to support them. I'd think they have something better to do than hunting down sites, though.

Pretty sure none of the stuff works on other Operating Systems. I'd have to say though, it's logical the most commonly used operating system would be supported first.

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

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17-10-2006, 08:58

@Dvik - afaik the bought games can only be played in MSXPLAYer (for now).

The thing this service has going for it is the inclusion of manuals and extra's, and the fact the games are in english of course, IMO. Well, and it's all official, of course.

I've got a question myself too... I assume this is the case, but the woomb launcher has MSXPLAYer built in?

By Huey

Prophet (2644)

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17-10-2006, 09:24

Respect!
Although i'd rather also see the possibility to buy and play on a real MSX or OCM (but would work piracy in hand). I must say that this a good initiative.

The initial game library couldn't be better. Especially the translations will interest people.......again.

By konamiman

Paragon (1037)

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17-10-2006, 09:25

Sorry but I strongly disagree with the "emulator only" politics. If I buy a MSX game I want to play it in my MSX computer, just this. Emulator compatibility is a nice bonus, but should not be the only available option.

By turbor

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17-10-2006, 09:37

I'm gonna buy some of those titles as soon as I can run them (either on Linux+openMSX or on the real thing).
I'm more surprised to see that XAK isn't available , while this title was always shown on the fairs... Question (No offence to DeltaSoft, but this new translation with enhanced text routines looks much nicer then their fan-translation.)

By Samor

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17-10-2006, 09:59

Actually it's not that strange it's emulator only.

Like that Wii virtual console, you're not gonna ask Nintendo to be able to run it on the original hardware either.

I bought MGS3 Subsistence, and I really didn't expect the 2 old Metal Gear games to automagically work on an MSX as well (they don't).

It's highly impractical for several reasons.
It's a download service, providing classic games on a modern platform.
It comes with an easy to use emulator, so average Joe can run it... for such a service to be succesful, it should be easily accessible for everyone.

Of course that isn't running on Linux. Apple (iPod) isn't officially supporting Linux either, for example. It's not interesting at all to do that. Yes, Linux is great, I know... it's just much less commonly used and that's why it won't get a priority in such cases (that is not quite limited to this particular service either).

Yes, there are MSX users who prefer Linux. Let's think outside this small community with MSX2's or better and Moonsounds and Linux machines for a while. While there's definately potential customers for the service right here at MRC, I doubt you'd want to limit a download service to that. Rather, it should work for a broader audience.
There are many former MSX users who weren't very computer litterate, but just had it as a homecomputer, and many potentially interested users (think retrogamers). There are also people who prefer not to have to tinker with settings all the time. Not everyone likes that stuff. Just from my experience, MSXPLAYer is the easiest MSX emulator I ever used. While BlueMSX is technically more advanced, and has an easy to use interface, the sheer number of options alone could scare away certain users.

Besides, said user will have to go look for games on the net, and whatnot. Yet here is a readily available service with an all-in-one package. Complain about MSXPLAYer all you want, but it does exactly what it's designed for.

Providing a ROM or DSK would harm the usability of the service, allthough it still could be added as an addition. They'd throw away their copyprotection though...

There'd be another risk: users would complain their game not working on emulator X or configuration Y. As a provider of a service, you'll want to keep these matters in your own hand. By providing everything you need to play the game, they know what they're delivering and can provide better customer support and prevent having to give "bogus support" that involves additional hardware/software that does not belong to the service in the first place.

By viejo_archivero

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17-10-2006, 10:35

Interesting news. I really hope you will succeed with your bussiness!.

Just my opinion:

...for those complaining things in this thread, you must note that woomb will be a place for people not into emulation to get their piece of retrofeeling... woomb won't bring us new MSX games, neither re-editions of old games for our MSX... they can eventually distribute games from other platforms in the future, so... I think the idea is not that woomb=supporting msx revival but woomb=online shop of retrogames. So there is no way to complain about 'why I can't play the game in my MSX'. It is just that woomb is not for you.

The good thing for MSX users imho is the possibility for developers whose can create a proffesional work to promote their games. But I think people here is discussing about how woomb doesn't fit their needs, and imho woomb is focused to other people: general gamers.

By zett

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17-10-2006, 12:37

The used the same collors as msxposse.com
QuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionoO

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

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17-10-2006, 12:57

I think also that Bazix/Woomb main goal is not the MSX community, but the new generation of gamers. As they are now tendencies to come back to less sophisticated games, especially in the graphic area, MSX and MSX2 can be very attractive for the new generation.

On the other side, I guess that someone will create some days the dsk files that interest the MSX community. It would allow to play English version of Aleste/Aleste 2/Golvellius/Golvellius 2 on real MSX machines and advanced emulators like blueMSX and openMSX. It's just a question of time Tongue

By wolf_

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17-10-2006, 12:58

but the woomb logo itself is over 2 years old already, and the site is based on those logo colors I think..

By cesco

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17-10-2006, 13:31

Only available for Windows. They can happily keep that games for themselves, I'm not buying anything CrazyCrazyCrazy

By snout

Ascended (15187)

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17-10-2006, 13:35

Thanks for all the response so far! Just a few answers to some questions. Indeed, the games sold on WOOMB are embedded in MSXPLAYer and run on Windows only. As is the case with Amusement Center, sale of games for the OCM and other platforms might follow in the future, amongst others depending on the success of WOOMB. For now it's Win32 only.

By Sama

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17-10-2006, 14:07

And about games you might have expected to see online in WOOMB - remember that they're just not there yet. Games will be added every now and then.

Oh and about the circulation of DSK and ROM versions - whenever that happens, count me out for any MSX game translation (for real MSX's) in the future whatsoever Evil

By Sonic_aka_T

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17-10-2006, 14:37

@mars: That's not a very nice thing to suggest. You know very well what will happen when ROMs/DSKs come into circulation, and that's exactly *why* these titles won't be available on hardware for at least some time. Some of the titles offered by woomb were localized by myself, and you would not believe the amount of time that goes into making a *proper* localization (these aren't just Oasis-like translations). I've spent hours on end trying to debug code, replace graphics, even implenting some tiny 'new features'. Especially considering what these titles cost, please let's not ask for 'hardware versions' when we all know what will end up happening in practice. Don't get me wrong; I would also like to see 'my games' released for (and running on) hardware, but we all know what will happen then, don't we? Let's just hope for now that woomb will be successful, and maybe that will encourage another step towards OCM-specific releases. If that goes well, perhaps Bazix and D4 might look into the possibility of doing hardware releases...

By Huey

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17-10-2006, 15:58

Adding a Woomb launcher into OCM?

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5325)

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17-10-2006, 16:35

Can someone explain me, why this Topic is MSX Revival? I think that this topic should be in Remakes. It's nice that PC users can play these good old games, but this has nothing to do with supporting MSX platform or MSX users. I think this is direct step in opposite direction.

I agree with Sonic_aka_T that some MSX users are bad, they copy games and it is true, that in worst case this could affect PC game sales. Let's hope, that PC users are not that bad.

Just to make things clear: I don't have anything against WOOMB, this is just not MSX news. As you all know MSX is not a programming language for Windows, it is hardware standard and these games can not be run on MSX hardware.

By mars2000you

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17-10-2006, 18:30

@sonic : I agree that asking a reasonable price for a translated game is a good idea, especially when I consider the work and the patience to do these translations. I should have been interested by a version that could be runned on blueMSX or a real MSX machine and I should have payed the reasonable price. But as it's impossible, I'm forced to wait for a DSK or ROM version. You must understand my reactions in this approach, I'm not against paying a reasonable price, I'm not even against the idea of commercial re-releases (and translations) .... the proof : I've made the news on the French site Passion MSX without giving negative signs, but on a personal side, I'm not interested by a product embedded in the MSXPLAYer. And many other members of the MSX community think the same.

By jalu

Master (156)

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17-10-2006, 20:03

I must say that I am a bit dissappointed that the games are Windows only, even though this was to be expected. Given the choice, I'd rather have the option to play the games on real MSX hardware than on a Mac or Linux machine, though, or on a Windows system for that matter. Ah well, at least it's a start; keep up the good work!

By Ivan

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17-10-2006, 23:46

I would like to see in Woomb the masterpieces that Konami released for MSX and games from the MSX Community like The Cure.

By wolf_

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17-10-2006, 23:51

That same MSX community can ofcourse also offer a (quality-)game for Woomb, but it'll be a Woomb-exclusive product then.

By Algorythms

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18-10-2006, 02:06

@wolf: That would be totally stupid. To make an MSX game which is exclusively distributed by woomb so you cannot play it on the platform it is made for. Then they should just make a PC game with crappy gfx and sound instead! Tongue

By SLotman

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18-10-2006, 03:16

Aside any of the reactions - the only thing I have to add is that PC users are way more evilish than MSX users... if game were to be sold as ROM or as DSK, most of them would respect it, as they do with new games being made (mostly because they understand this can benefit the MSX scene as a whole).

In the "PC community", there are much more ppl dedicated to "cracking" and "warezing" (heh, just gave a boost on msx.org's stats by typing those words!) than on MSX side, so I wouldnt be surprised to see those games on torrent sites *if* they get popular (more than 5000 visits/day) as the same happens with every game launched by a big portal...

I really dont see the point to not include a dsk/rom version on the download, but that is a business decision, I guess...

By Samor

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18-10-2006, 07:50

I agree that the community hasn't spread much in terms of illegal software... sure, the old known games are all over the place (the place being the internet), but newer releases are not often seen. For example, the Matra games, Bombaman or later Japanese titles like Kyokugen and Pleasure Hearts... I've never seen those illegally anywhere, and it'd better stay that way.

Anyway, the format remains an understandable choice....

I'd like to ask one thing... I've seen a bunch of complaints about MSXPLAYer, yes, I agree blueMSX is more advanced, and you could perhaps find an issue or two if you look for it (but I can in about any emulator) - what's exactly wrong with MSXPLAYer (aside from being Windows-only, I mean)?

wolf_, yes, the MSX community could deliver games for Woomb, but where does it say they have to be exclusive?

By viejo_archivero

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18-10-2006, 09:15

<Samor: wolf_, yes, the MSX community could deliver games for Woomb, but where does it say they have to be exclusive?>

I'm pretty curious on the answer of that question too. And if it is really that way, who the hell would code something for MSX that can't be available for the MSX system?.

By dvik

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18-10-2006, 09:39

I think MSXPLAYer works fine for these types of games. Games usually aren't coded to utilize 100% of the VDP and doesn't rely on exact timing so I don't think its anything wrong with using MSXPLAYer. As author of blueMSX I could of course think its sad that I can't run the games in our emu but that has nothing to do with accuracy and gameplay.
The important thing is that there isn't too many glitches in the video part (I actually doubt you'll find any) and that the joystick/keyboard configuration is good. Not sure how it looks in MSXPLAYer nowdays but I'm sure they thought about that part.

I'm a bit curious about the pricing and who the target audience is though. For an MSX compatible game (that can be run on real hw) I would easily pay 10 Euro but I'm not sure if I would do it for a 25 year old game running in an emulator. Its of course nice to get the documentation which is worth something but still, its a bit on the expensive side compared to similar retro gaming services.
I would guess the target audience actually is the MSX community and also 30+ year olds that had these games as kids and want to feel a bit retro. I doubt that newly developed games would sell that well actually since new games aren't really retro.

Over all I think its a great idea and I wish you all luck with sales and expanding the number of titles.

By konamiman

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18-10-2006, 09:46

"I would also like to see 'my games' released for (and running on) hardware, but we all know what will happen then, don't we?"

Oh, let's see if I have understood. The idea is: let's sell MSX games. But we will not make them available to MSX users, because they would make illegal copies. Instead, the games will be available for Windows users only.

Very logical indeed, even more considering that <ironic mode> Windows users are well known for strictly respeting the copyrights and no one single Windows program has ever been cracked or copied. </ironic mode>

I'm very sad of seeing that this "users are guilty by default" politics so common in companies like Microsoft is now applied to MSX users, even more considering that these users are who have kept the MSX system alive in the last 15 years.

Seriously: I really would like to buy these translated japanese masterpieces, especially at prices as low as 10€. But I want to play them on my real MSX. They are MSX games after all, right?

Sorry for the flame, I really think that WOOMB is a good idea and I'm happy that it exists. But I think that this is not the way real-hardware MSX users should be treated.

By Patsie

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18-10-2006, 09:57

Would it be an idea to team up with Matra and produce these wonderful, translated games on real cartridges again? I think the real MSX die-hards would love to have these games on cart again. (I know I would)
Perhaps it's time for a new poll, and see what the people here would like Smile

By Samor

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18-10-2006, 10:18

on cart? that would be quite interesting... I like that idea. Smile

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 11:08

On the exclusiveness: well that's basically up to snout/rikusu/bart to confirm or deny, but imagine you're Amusement Centre/Woomb, and your core business is to sell stuff.. would you want to sell things that can be obtained freely on 'that ftp site'? For sure AC/W wants some exclusiveness for exactly this.

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 11:20

VA: And if it is really that way, who the hell would code something for MSX that can't be available for the MSX system?.

Well, there there are more Amusement Centre users than MSX users.. that might be the challenge. Tongue

By viejo_archivero

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18-10-2006, 11:51

Wolfie: Well, there there are more Amusement Centre users than MSX users.. that might be the challenge.

If the thing is the audience the game might have, then just make a full windows-powered 3d game and sell it to all users of the world. Tongue

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 11:58

Impossible for a small team with only 2d/retro experience.. That PC's are easy on 3d these days doesn't mean users are.. I'm completely NO 3d modeller. And competition is hard and the world is so big. In the MSX scene you can actually mean something and you'll be sure that most of the msx sceners will play your game.. I actually think this counts for about all active MSX developers atm. Tongue

By NYYRIKKI

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18-10-2006, 14:24

So you actually think, that MSX users will play these Windows remakes because someone has said, that they could in theory run on MSX? (Actually I think that these translations would have been released for MSX if that would be easyly possible)

I don't think that these games will intrest MSX users. Only way to make MSX users to buy these games again is to make a nice "Collectors edition" box with manual, posters, stickers, soundtrack or something similar.

By Samor

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18-10-2006, 14:36

well, the inclusion of the manual, the fact it's english and such does interest me.

I'm one of those MSX users that occasionally drags his real MSX out, but I'm using emulation most of the time....

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 14:38

Only way to make MSX users to buy these games again is to make a nice "Collectors edition" box with manual, posters, stickers, soundtrack or something similar.

That has been my point also in conversations with bazix, but that's.. well, expensive. I do believe however that ppl want something they can touch, bonus material etc. DVDs also have bonus material on a movie DVD.. ppl like bonuses!

By Huey

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18-10-2006, 14:58

Isn't Woomb just the Non-asain version the amusement center? What did you all expect?
Why is everybody (well almost everybody) looking for the limitations and not for the possibilities?

It's has been ages that something from Japan came available for us. Now we even have official translations.

IMHO i don't care about the platform. We're living in a platform independent world by now. If gameplay is good it will be good on an MSX, PC, Mobile Phone, etc.

By Samor

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18-10-2006, 15:00

I have to agree...MSX lives on on modern platforms... maybe that could be considered "revival" Wink

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 15:25

It would be nice if bazix/woomb would create boxes/manuals/bonus-stuff they could sell on MSX-fairs to ppl who bought the game. pre-ordered ofcoz Tongue

By viejo_archivero

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18-10-2006, 15:45

Matra offers brand new original carts, with box, manual, rom label, new plastic cases and shrinkwrapped: with no preorders. To print some manual in color is expensive for Bazix?.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. Perhaps is because I'm not a potential user of Woomb. I guess Woomb works for those who want Woomb's services so... good luck and go for it! Smile

By wolf_

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18-10-2006, 16:31

Well, expensive/not expensive, dunno, but what if 2500 ppl want boxes 'n stuff? Does Matra do such quantities?

By Samor

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18-10-2006, 16:56

also, Woomb is an online service... physical distribution of game boxes over the net tends to be a tad difficult Tongue ...way to point out the obvious, yes, but that's where PDF comes in Wink

By snout

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18-10-2006, 23:00

What people seem to be forgetting is that the MSX revival has always been about taking one step at a time. Without the success of Amusement Center, the One Chip MSX would never have seen the light of day. Now, it looks like Amusement Center is to support the OCM (and, who knows, real MSX computers as well) in the future. WOOMB is only a day old, we would gladly release software for OCM and real MSX in the future, but we can't even remotely think about all that before taking this crucial first step.

Also, please keep in mind that for every step we take we do need the consent of the parties involved in software licenses (e.g. Compile or T&E Soft). It is already amazing that Bazix received licenses for official translations and re-distribution of these titles in its current form. Win32 only? Yes. Some form of DRM? Yes. Just like in Amusement Center. But at least it's out there, supported by its copyrightholders, available outside Japan.

By dvik

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19-10-2006, 00:22

Also, please keep in mind that for every step we take we do need the consent of the parties involved in software licenses (e.g. Compile or T&E Soft). It is already amazing that Bazix received licenses for official translations and re-distribution of these titles in its current form.
It is amazing indeed Cool

I think doing Win32 releases of the games is not too bad. I doubt there are too many users that actually use their real MSXes to play games, maybe a couple of hundred. You can compare that with the number of blueMSX users which is 20.000 or so (maybe more since I'm not aware of all distribution channels). So to reach the big crowd that is interested in MSX, I think selling the games bundled in an emu is more profitable and also will reach more potential users.

By Grauw

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19-10-2006, 15:18

Oh and about the circulation of DSK and ROM versions - whenever that happens, count me out for any MSX game translation (for real MSX's) in the future whatsoever

Well, no offense, and note that I do not condone illegal copies of the WOOMB releases, but from the moment you joined Bazix you were already ‘lost’ for users of real MSX-es.

I will not play games on an emulator, and all your products that you have released the last more than 2 years (namely those being on WOOMB right now) have been for emulators only. Which means it is worthless to me, you might as well have translated games for say, the SNES or the PC.

And as for releases in a format that can be used on real MSX-es, there have been vague statements only which hardly raise my confidence, so forgive me if I’m being sceptical about ‘future real MSX game translations’ from your part.

Not trying to piss you off, or being unthankful for your work, but that’s my perspective on things.

Anyways, I’m looking forward to a tool to extract DSK and ROM-images from WOOMB-releases. Maybe then, given that it’s not illegal (in the legal sense, not whether or not Bazix likes it), I will buy some games from WOOMB.

~Grauw

By mars2000you

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19-10-2006, 16:01

>Anyways, I’m looking forward to a tool to extract DSK and ROM-images from WOOMB-releases. Maybe then, given that it’s not illegal (in the legal sense, not whether or not Bazix likes it), I will buy some games from WOOMB.

Grauw : it's probably possible to create such a tool, the difficult part is not the extraction of the DSK/ROM images from the MSXPLAYer edition dedicated to a specific game, but the deciphering of the DSK/ROM image (as for security reasons, the image is encrypted). A precision : I say that without having buyed one of the Woomb games, but only by checking how CD-ROM files of the Ascii magazines are actually build.

By wolf_

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19-10-2006, 17:36

Grauw, maybe it was the choice of Compile and Microcabin and another handful of companies to do things this way! It was already stated that those companies would cooperate with this whole revival thing, but they prolly demanded this protective system (for obvious reasons).. so, not much point in giving Woomb/Bazix the ..ahum.. 'Black Pete' ^_____^ It's like blaming Dixons for the suckyness of one of the Philips devices they're selling.. blame Philips instead!

(are there any non-Dutch who get the Black Pete thing? Tongue )

By Grauw

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19-10-2006, 17:37

p.s. I have raised my issues about the WOOMB translations not having MSX releases before (so I have actually not said anything new in my post above, I am repeating myself, I must be growing old Smile). In the two years that have followed there has been no news as to whether that will ever happen. I hope you guys will consider this an important second step, for the MSX community, now that WOOMB has finally been launched (congratulations on that, btw).

~Grauw

By Grauw

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19-10-2006, 17:59

Wolf – that’s not the point. Rieks decided to move from fan-translating MSX games to commercially translating MSX games to be sold on emulators only on a non-MSX platform. Now he threatens to never translate for real MSX computers again if someone might happen to circulate illegal copies of his translated games (which is like punishing the entire community for the errors of a few). Which seems entirely unreasonable, but anyway. From my perspective, that is a poor statement, because he is *already* not translating for real MSX computers anymore for the past two years, with no forseeable change in the future (as there has been no known progress in that regard for the last two years either, and he is for a large part depending on the goodwill of the Japanese companies).

But regardless of whether the Japanese companies are blocking the for-real-MSX-distribution or not, it is he who chose to go this way. The way I see it, he has let down the MSX community by doing that. Although it is his choice, it is a choice that frustrates me, especially when he makes some threat which he has effectively already put into effect since more than two years ago.

Similarly, I am disappointed that WOOMB is not aimed at the MSX community at all with its current distribution method. Because, be frank, even if you would be fine with using an emulator to play these games, would you really want to use MSX-Player instead of (insert your favorite MSX emulator with nice renderers here)? Anyways, I hope this can be rectified in the (near) future. Some announcement would be nice.

(By the way, I doubt that ANMA would object against distributing copies for-MSX. Cool that those games are in the software list, btw Smile.)

~Grauw

p.s. am I the only one who is getting ‘Toegang verboden!’ errors CONSTANTLY while he is accessing msx.org? It’s been like this for quite a while already, accross multiple computers I’ve been using, and it’s very weird because after reloading a lot of times the page does load sometimes (albeit not completely, missing CSS files or images).

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9766)

wolf_'s picture

19-10-2006, 19:47

On the Rieks issue: I can't be bothered about it, frankly. But it's in a way logical to say to stop translating if these new releases get warez'ized. He's part of a company now, not a standalone scene-oriented translator. You can't blame a person in sitation A for something that person did years ago in situation B. In this case 'company' and 'scene' are truly different organisations. But again, I couldn't care less about all of it, I actually hope most/all ppl would do the same.

And about Woomb in general: it's not the new Sunrise or the new Matra or the new Bitwise, it's a retroplatform which works the way it currently works: with MSX-player. So: it is what it is, and not something else. There's no point in writing to Chiquita to tell 'em you don't like bananas, rite? Tongue

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

19-10-2006, 20:50

>And about Woomb in general: it's not the new Sunrise or the new Matra or the new Bitwise, it's a retroplatform

And that's why I agree with Nyyrikki : these news should not be viewed as 'MSX Revival', but as 'Remakes'.

Real MSX Revival is new hardware or software, not old MSX games (even translated) packaged in an only Windows emulator.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9766)

wolf_'s picture

19-10-2006, 21:01

Well, revival or remake, that's open for debate.. (as per usual I can't be bothered with either option, I just take things as they are). As long as MSX-Player is an MSX emulator, the games are upgraded MSX games (english + protection mechanism) and the ppl behind it are MSX'ers, then to me it sits more close to 'revival' than to 'remakes'. Remakes for me are things like retroremakes and perhaps gametunes, e.g. things remade from scratch with new art/media, on a modern system. And in many cases remakes somewhat refer to 'retro'. But to each his own taste..

By Sama

Ambassador (2060)

Sama's picture

20-10-2006, 12:43

@Grauw: Initially I wasn't even planning to react to your post, simply because I don't have the feeling that I have to explain my statement. However, one sentence especially struck me: "The way I see it, he has let down the MSX community by doing that.".

Has it ever occurred to you that some people just don't have the -time- for things they might want to do? Did I let you down because my law studies, my job, my company and my social life have priority over pleasing you? I guess I will have to clarify myself: I am not a philantropist! Whenever I do something for MSX, I do it because I like doing it and because I have the time for it. I have been -very- busy with the WOOMB preparations, of which the translation part is essentially the same (as they are not remakes, they are MSX games and localized in a way that differs at no point from the localization of games that are released for real MSX'es), which makes that I am not too enthusiastic to keep doing that when I am not busy with WOOMB.

However, a more general statement from my side is that there have been times the past few years that I realized that I don't know if I still like making things for MSX with a release-purpose. How often haven't I seen that new initiatives (particularly concerning MRC and/or Bazix and/or WOOMB) were mainly criticized. Some MSX users seem to be making a sport out of spotting negative points in initiatives. The reactions to this newspost, too, seem to be consisting mainly out of criticism. Do you have the right to do that? Yes, you surely have. Do I have the right to be demotivated by that a lot? Yes, I surely have.

Part of the MSX audience simply ruins the MSX fun for me. Initiatives in which I have taken part have too often been received too negatively. Certain antagonism in the MSX-scene makes me sad and - to be honest - irritated. It may even surprise you when I say that I wouldn't have worked for about three years on a project if it was aimed only at the (current) MSX community?

The fact that in the reactions to this newspost 'warezing' of WOOMB games is already a subject of conversation, only emphasizes my point. Add to that the fact that I hear people talking about how pitiful it is that MSXPLAYer is used instead of another emulator (the fact that MSXPLAYer works perfectly with these games seems to be of no value in the eyes of those people) and the fact that the concept of WOOMB is not new (I have never read any of these complaints when it concerned the Japanese counterparts and I have read them already when the first news about WOOMB was published), yet the reactions to the post simply do not seem to be about WOOMB itself.

I like Wolf_'s quote: what's the use of telling Chiquita that you don't like bananas?

At least I won't get frustrated because the reactions to WOOMB of people outside the MSX community have generally been very positive. It clearly is something peculiar to the MSX scene to react this way.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

20-10-2006, 20:50

At least these news in 2002 were correct :

http://www.msx.org/3-in-1-newspost.newspost515.html

"EGG is a company that releases old retro software for PC. They will soon present Laydock, YS2, Xak Tower of Gazzel, Fray and other familiar games in their PC version. I guess this are non-improved, emulated versions of the original MSX/PC9801/FMTowns versions however."

But since 2 years, MRC tries to present "software for PC" as "MSX games" and at the same time, you have indeed stopped to make translations on ROM or DSK format for the MSX community. No other comments :(

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

20-10-2006, 22:32

Time for some thoughts of mine again.

WOOMB does release translations of Japanese MSX games translated to English. This is a service offered to anyone interested in it, including but not limited to the MSX community. It does this in a form that is completely legal, and a form that gets the consent of all parties involved. Please do not underestimate the tremendous efforts that were needed to make this alone possible. Although currently not available, releases for the One Chip MSX (already announced in Japan) and real MSX computers in the future are not impossible, given the fact we're not talking about remakes here, but about pure MSX software. In this light, the games being "non-improved, emulated versions" is actually a good thing (mind you, it's also a good thing as the original games often tend to be a lot better than their remakes). It also confirms that and why 'revival' is the right topic for this news post, not 'remakes'. Currently the limitation is, indeed, that you will receive the software embedded in a WOOMB version of MSXPLAYer. With this, we're not keeping these releases away from the MSX community, as some of you are implying, but merely distributing it in a form that you might not prefer.

In all discussions on Project EGG and the MSX revival so far (even in the 3in1 newspost Mars2000you mentions) the demand of releases in English, outside Japan was voiced very often. Bazix did no more than reply to this demand with WOOMB. You might not be fully satisfied with these means of distribution, but at least the English versions of Aleste (better translation than the one you know), Aleste 2, Golvellius, Golvellius 2, Hydlide, Hydlide 2 and their manuals are available to the MSX community now. These games and manuals have been (re)translated by a sworn translator (Japanese language) and have been approved by the companies that originaly released the games. I can assure you (and I'm sure Rieks can confirm this) that without the MSX revival, Rieks would never have regained interest in MSX and these translations would never have seen the light of day. The means of distribution are also exactly the same as those in Japan. If you really want to play these great MSX games in English, please do give the people who made it all happen the credit they deserve and take the MSXPLAYer you might consider as a downside for granted. It will help you sleep good at night, and will motivate the people behind it to release more and more games and - perhaps, just perhaps - add support for other platforms in the future.

The success of Project EGG has already lead to the release of the One Chip MSX, Compile being interested in releasing new MSX software again, MSX being included in the Wii Virtual Console and the future OCM support of Amusement Center contents in Japan. Who knows what the future may bring. It would not be the first time the MSX revival surprises criticasters.

By dvik

Prophet (2200)

dvik's picture

21-10-2006, 01:18

I have to say that I understand Rikusu. I've spent thousands of hours on blueMSX and I wouldn't have done so if the only target was the MSX/MRC community, especially after all criticism I got in eariler versions which is pretty much the same type of reactions WOOMB gets now. If it wasn't for the positive feedback I got and still get from users outside the core MSX community I'd stopped developing blueMSX a long time ago. The MSX community is unfortunately quite negative to new initiatives and new initiatives are often followed by a lot of critisism. I think its great to see these translations and re-releases and I'm sure they run just fine in MSXPLAYer.

I also think that emulation is part of the MSX revival. You won't see tens of thousands of people suddenly start buying old MSXes and connect them to the TV. Certanly some will buy the OCM, but I think even more will start enjoying MSX on emulators only. It would be quite unfair to exclude that group from the MSX revival just because they don't have the same interest for the hardware as many in this forum have.

That said, I'm also hoping to see the translations on a real MSX but that doesn't make the WOOMB releases less part of the revival.

By sunrise

Paragon (1091)

sunrise's picture

21-10-2006, 08:40

Too many people have expectations what Bazix is all about. Together with the different definitions of what is MSX-revival, MSX-Community etc. In my opinion Bazix was setup for the way as Woomb is created namely distribution via Internet.
Direct psycial distribution was out of the question , they would let that to others.
The second part was to make it possible that licensing could be arranged. Example is e.g. the Gamereader we distribute.
Oh btw Snout and or Rikusu. I have sent an email with list for improvements twice, please a reaction.
Having that said the experience is that this last part really low supported.
If there are issues, such as an european distribution of e.g. the OCM , I think if you are able to get the license than communicate with others. I think it would be very expensive for D4 to make an exclusive european serie of let say 300 copies adapted to european Rohs standard
In that way I disagree with Saeba, every minute you can now waste potential customers and if takes more than half a year MSX will have lost quite a lot of intersted people.I estimate that on at least 50%. So let's do it.

I see the reaction of e.g. not as critism but as an appeal on Rikusu to let the MSX Community ( defined according own standards) profit from the translations.

For the software distribution in psycal way -snout- do not suggest that you want to distribute it that way since it was never
a goal of Bazix. Sure youy can change your mind. But it would be wise as said on Bussum to explain what Bazix is all about time after time.

So people enjoy what Woomb offers

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1756)

poke-1,170's picture

21-10-2006, 16:55

well, I don't quite understand the fuzz. I bought a gp2x last week, installed fmsx and it's playing msx rom games.
So, it's not on an msx, yet I play msx games. Does it realy matter if it runs on an msx or on an emulator ?
I realy can't be bothered connecting a real msx (and i got over 20 haha), so I rather run bluemsx on the pc,
which for me has the same feeling, games are the same, plays the same.
So, I would say woomb just adds another option for people wanting to play games.
And if you want to play it on the real thing, then I suppose the old real cartridges will work fine.
I must say I still got goosebumps seeing the msx logo boot on a gp2x, and playing the games on
a platform different then the original one doesn't spoil my experience.

I wouldnt even have bothered being interested again in msx if it wasn't for something like bluemsx.
(my compliments on everyone who is involved in that by the way,and the same to fmsx)
So I don't understand the negative approach, nothing has changed, only something new is added. If you don't like it, then don't bother with it ,ignore the existence of it and it's still the same sunny world called elmo.

By Grauw

Ascended (8318)

Grauw's picture

22-10-2006, 19:20

Has it ever occurred to you that some people just don't have the -time- for things they might want to do? Did I let you down because my law studies, my job, my company and my social life have priority over pleasing you? I guess I will have to clarify myself: I am not a philantropist!

Sure. I’m not saying you must translate, nor for what platform. I’m only saying that you used to translate for MSX, and now you commercially translate for a non-MSX (though MSX-related) service. That’s fine by me, I just personally view it as a shame that I won’t be able to enjoy your translations on my MSX anymore.

Some MSX users seem to be making a sport out of spotting negative points in initiatives.

So, what exactly is bad about me saying that I dislike the fact that the ‘Rieks-translations’ are nowadays no longer available on the MSX platform?

I mean, it’s a honest thought of mine, and I actually feel very strongly about it! I hate not being able to buy your new translations on fairs anymore, and play them on my MSX. Why you would consider this as discouraging, I don’t know, I’d rather hope you’d see it as an encouragement that there is demand/interest and please please get it out there in some other form.

Of course, I could have written a bit more tactfully (but I was a bit irritated by your earlier post, given that a. I don’t like the ‘or-else’ type of tone of it, and b. the ‘or-else’ was a pretty lame one, for the reasons given above.). Then again, I submerged my post in phrases like ‘no offense’, ‘not trying to piss you off’, ‘not want to be unthankful’, etc.

But exactly the reason that I am responding (and, I suppose everyone else) is because I am very interested in WOOMB. Consider this a good thing! Had there be 0 comments, you should be worried Smile. Had there be only ‘great!’-type of comments, well, unless you did everything perfectly entirely and pleased everyone, I think you should be worried too. The current responses however seem quite normal to me, and they are pointing out various things where WOOMB could use improvement and what would make it good or even ‘perfect’ for them.

the fact that MSXPLAYer works perfectly with these games seems to be of no value in the eyes of those people

But does MSXPLAYer have fancy-schmansy scalers and an ‘arcade-emulator-renderer’ (*cough* *cough*)? Or a cheats system? Anyways, as I said, emulators are not really ‘hot’ for me in any case, but there are reasons why people might prefer to use another emulator (just like there are people who prefer, say, Linux over Windows).

Just a thought: it is maybe not the MSX-community, but ‘Bazix’ who can only see the negative side of the comments because they do not conform to what they do, can or want to offer? What I mean to say is: any criticism people have, is their honest feeling about such-and-such. Whether or not Bazix is tied by agreements and cooperation of other companies is interesting to know of course, but it does not change the feelings of people about what they like and dislike. If these criticisms frustrate you because you can not do anything to change it, maybe you should direct your frustrations toward them instead of the MSX community.

At least I won't get frustrated because the reactions to WOOMB of people outside the MSX community have generally been very positive. It clearly is something peculiar to the MSX scene to react this way.
No, it’s that WOOMB is in its current form simply not aimed at the MSX community, so you shouldn’t expect the MSX community to like it without reservations. Please realise this vital point. It’s nice/interesting news, about WOOMB, but for many in the MSX community, there are things that are lacking, and that is what the comments are about. For the audience that is your target audience, this is of course a great initiative and they are absolutely right in sending you enthousiastic mails.

Had there been downloads for use on real MSX computers, I’m sure that the reactions would have been more positive among the MRC audience. Actually, you would probably have been lauded because this would have been a positive change from what has been announced earlier Smile. I do not think that e.g. the MRC webshop received much criticism? (I’m probably going to regret saying that ‘question’ ;p)

But anyway, please do not view this as some form of negatism in the MSX community. It is only logical.

Snout wrote:
With this, we're not keeping these releases away from the MSX community, as some of you are implying, but merely distributing it in a form that you might not prefer.

Of course, you can call it whatever you want Smile. We probably have different definitions of community, and mine is probably more narrow (or maybe I’m the only one who dislikes emulators!). The fact remains, though, and that is what I am commenting on…

Although currently not available, releases for the One Chip MSX (already announced in Japan) and real MSX computers in the future are not impossible, given the fact we're not talking about remakes here, but about pure MSX software.

"releases for […] real MSX computers are not impossible" … You do realise that the phrasing "not impossible" is not really making me more optimistic about this, do you?

Also, the release of the OCM in Europe is not sure at all at the moment. More uncertainty. (Although actually the fact that the OCM was released by D4E gives me more hope that they will put a lot of effort in convincing the companies to release the rights to distribute ‘fo real’, and that Bazix will be able to benefit from such an arrangement.) (But still, no certainty, and two years have gone by.) I understand that there are things that are beyond your control, and you are probably not able to give an answer. But the questions remain, and people will keep nagging for an answer, because they DO care. ESPECIALLY because they care.

It will help you sleep good at night
Er, right.

sunrise wrote:
I see the reaction of e.g. not as critism but as an appeal on Rikusu to let the MSX Community ( defined according own standards) profit from the translations.
Right.

~Grauw

p.p.s. is anyone from msx.org going to respond to my ‘Toegang Verboden’ problem? I believe this is the second time I have posted about it, and the issue makes it very hard for me to frequent msx.org, and I don’t think it’s going to go away by itself.

By Grauw

Ascended (8318)

Grauw's picture

22-10-2006, 19:51

but merely distributing it in a form that you might not prefer.

Note also that this non-preferred form is what is holding back a lot of consumers from purchasing e.g. their music online from a legal distributor. The Dutch Consumentenbond has urged the music industry and distributors to be not so restrictive on what users can and can’t do with the products they paid for. Also, I do not buy a CD if I see it has copy protection on it, because that will cause me all kinds of discomforts that I do not appreciate.

Also, as another example, I tried to copy some music onto my Japanese cellphone, but because of some horrid DRM system that made things extremely complex (and in the end, nonfunctional), I had to resort to burning my music in MP3 form onto a CD and then ripping that CD onto my phone through the provided software. And now I finally managed to get it there, I can not set the music as my ringtone, probably yet another DRM hurdle. I have yet to discover how to ‘magically’ work around that problem.

In the case of WOOMB, I could probably write a piece of software that either extracts the DSK or ROM files from the package, or just dump them onto a disk from within MSX-player (parallel: copying DRM-ed music on a CD and then ripping it to MP3), and it is likely that this would be a legal thing to do. After all, I purchased the product. But, it’s a degradation from previous functionality, and for me so much that even though there are nice previously unavailable translations offered, it holds me back from using the service/products.

So this is not some ‘unimportant’ detail.

~Grauw

By Grauw

Ascended (8318)

Grauw's picture

22-10-2006, 20:25

Poke,

well, I don't quite understand the fuzz. I bought a gp2x last week, installed fmsx and it's playing msx rom games.

MSX-Player does not work on the GP2X platform (which happens to be Linux/ARM9, I understand)…

So, I would say woomb just adds another option for people wanting to play games.
And if you want to play it on the real thing, then I suppose the old real cartridges will work fine.

The problem to me is that, the products that WOOMB offers are actually *new products* containing English translations (even manuals!) that have never before been released on MSX. That is of course very interesting. Of the three options that you mentioned however (GP2X, MSX-Player, MSX cartridge), two are unavailable at the moment, and the third I am averse to. So that leaves nothing except for not buying (and playing) at all.

~Grauw

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

22-10-2006, 20:49

>Note also that this non-preferred form is what is holding back a lot of consumers from purchasing e.g. their music online from a legal distributor

That's exactly also my point of view. All products with DRM protection should be boycotted, it's the best answer to such exaggerate system. 90% of consumers are not bandits and DRM system treats them as bandits. It's simply untolerable.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

22-10-2006, 20:50

Grauw - logfiles confirm that you are the only one who gets access denied errors from time to time. I'm not sure what's causing this, but have just adjusted some settings that might fix the problem. If not: let me know. Is there some common factor (e.g. browser, firewall, ...) on the computers you use to browse the MRC?

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9766)

wolf_'s picture

22-10-2006, 20:58

Mars:
>Note also that this non-preferred form is what is holding back a lot of consumers from purchasing e.g. their music online from a legal distributor

That's exactly also my point of view. All products with DRM protection should be boycotted, it's the best answer to such exaggerate system. 90% of consumers are not bandits and DRM system treats them as bandits. It's simply untolerable.

Dunno, I do think the majority = bandits.. Tongue All those CD's with protections on it are a result of copying/downloading the same albums. The real issue here is that a lot of ppl think those original CD's are too expensive, esp. when they take into account the tens o' Bentley turbo R's the record industrials drive in, and the dinkey toy some of their artists can only buy. I don't think an Aleste 2 -and other quality games- for less than ten euro is to be called 'expensive', nor are these games the result of an evil gamecompany. So, from a moral point of view, these new cheap and quality games don't deserve to be hacked out of their protective coat.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

22-10-2006, 21:05

Wolf, it's not a problem of expensive or cheap product, at least in my eyes, but a problem of principle. I have a great collection of musical CD's or DVD's and I refuse always to make copies for my friends. But I have the right to read them also on my PC or to extract WAV/MP3 files, just for my personal confort.

That's exactly the same with MSX games embedded in a Windows format : I must have the right to extract easily the DSK file and to use it on blueMSX for example. DRM protection does not allow that, so I'll boycott the product.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

22-10-2006, 21:56

For the people who don't know why DRM is an attack against legitimate personal rights, this page is a good beginning to think beyond the appearances :

http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

22-10-2006, 22:34

"That's exactly the same with MSX games embedded in a Windows format : I must have the right to extract easily the DSK file and to use it on blueMSX for example."

really.... I'll bring up MGS3 Subsistence once again; the original Metal Gears are included, ports to PS2. No, they don't run on an MSX or blueMSX... should I boycot them, because a 20 year old piece of hardware of ancient times isn't supported?
Konami uses the MSX bootscreens yet they don't run on a real MSX... call the police, quick!

By Bart

Paragon (1423)

Bart's picture

22-10-2006, 23:18

p.p.s. is anyone from msx.org going to respond to my ‘Toegang Verboden’ problem?

Grauw, if this 'problem' is such an annoyance to you why don't you send us an email stating the problem, when it occurs, what browser you use and any other information that might be of value to determine the cause? Hiding your distress call in P.S.'es in a busy post like this one is not the smartest way to communicate the problem.

Anyway I've also looked into it (just as Snout did), but couldn't find a direct cause. Please send that email...

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1756)

poke-1,170's picture

23-10-2006, 03:09

grauw: well I understand that these games are new because they have manuals and decent translations,
but wether you play them on an msx or on a pc doesn't make that much of a difference I guess ?
I don't think that a platform port is such a bad thing, the nintendo WII will be able to play not only nes
games, but also sega and msx (great ,who would have thought that !).
Same for the x-box 360, psp ( not designed to be a homebrew machine but people obviously love old
games so...) and gp2x. I mean it ain't so bad playing it on a pc is what I try to say. Sound and graphics
will probably look the same 100 % anyway, and with a digital>analogue joystick converter you can even
use joypads and arcade joysticks. If it wasn't for mame and today's technology providing the possibility
to have accurate emulators, there wouldn't have been any sort of game revival whatsoever.
Also, the sunrise gamereader thingy runs original roms on a pc if I'm not mistaken (in an emulator?), so... I mean a romdump is a romdump, and I guess the interpretation of that in an msx emulator is accurate enough. ( if not flawless)

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

23-10-2006, 08:33

yes, the Sunrise gamereader uses a special version of MSXPLAYer and can run real cartridges.

By Huey

Prophet (2644)

Huey's picture

23-10-2006, 11:30

I just saw that you get a sticker as an extra with undeadline!

How do I download a sticker? LOL!
Do I need an extra adhesive plugin???

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

23-10-2006, 12:06

as PDF.

..if you want to print it and use it as a sticker, get avery printer stickers or something Wink

By Huey

Prophet (2644)

Huey's picture

23-10-2006, 12:43

That's pretty lame......... Isn't everything a sticker then?

Anyway. I still like the idea to have the extra's

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

23-10-2006, 17:09

yes, you could make everything a sticker Tongue

anyway, it's an extra - I think it's great they included it at all, even if in PDF.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

23-10-2006, 17:16

>yes, the Sunrise gamereader uses a special version of MSXPLAYer and can run real cartridges.

The gamereader can also be used with blueMSX 2.6 LOL!

So, when will Woomb products be compatible with blueMSX ? Probably it will remain a dream because DRM protection is against legitimate personal rights.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9766)

wolf_'s picture

23-10-2006, 17:33

So, when will Woomb products be compatible with blueMSX ?

When chiquita bananas are. But I don't think Chiquita will ever make their bananas compatible, for most ppl would copy/download their bananes then, rather than buy. But most importantly, it's probably in Chiquita's businessplan not to make their bananas compatible with blueMSX.

So I guess there're two things left:
- don't eat Chiquita bananas
- accept Chiquita for what they offer: "Banana-player (tm)" pub.unreal64.net/boor/banana.gif

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

23-10-2006, 17:45

>The gamereader can also be used with blueMSX 2.6

yes, allthough the way it works now it's a tad too slow (but accurate)
...
I was thinking today, with a simple batch script (or frontend) around Vincent van Dam's dumper, you could use it with about any emulator, but it'd be sort of pretending =P

By Manuel

Ascended (15622)

Manuel's picture

23-10-2006, 23:41

my 2 cents:

Woomb could be great, and probably is great already, but not for me. Congratulations on the launch, but it's really useless to me. It's not only a format 'one might not prefer', to me it's a format which is completely unusable. So, it's quite a bit of a pain for me that I'm a hardcore MSXer that isn't considered the audience of translated MSX games... But alas, I can't help it.
I'll just keep hoping and waiting for the games to become available for real MSX.

So, I'm hoping that Woomb as it is now will be a huge success, so that the chances of that happening will be as big as possible! Everyone buy the stuff!

By Algorythms

Champion (285)

Algorythms's picture

24-10-2006, 13:14

I will BUY games on Woomb when there is a ripper available so that I can play the games on a real MSX, OR if Woomb sells as an MSX compatible game. I do not understand why that would be insulting, and why the games "don't deserve to be hacked out of their protective coat". If a game WOULD have feelings, it would probably "deserve" to be played on a real MSX. And I do not see the harm in it, as I DO NOT THINK MSX'ers will distribute the copies. The only thing that would happen is that Woomb would sell more. I'd say there's a 0.01% chance of MSX'ers warezing it ripped, and a 99% chance of some PC'er hacking and spreading the MSX-player version of the game.
And another thing. Someone said that noone complained about the Japanese company not releasing for MSX, and that's not true. Atleast I did.
And why are you taking this so personal? Many of the people expressing their thoughts also say congratulations, but you only focus on what's ment as constructive critisism. We do have the right to "post a reaction" to a post.
Put yourself in a buyers shoes for a while. If you bought an MSX in the 80's without reset button, and then have a chance to talk to the designer, you might suggest to him that the next batch would have one. And if you "hack" the MSX open and install one yourself, why should the makers be insulted?
I DO wish for the success of Woomb, Basix and all the Japanese companies even considering doing stuff for MSX. I just don't see a REASON why not releasing games for their own hardware. If not norman MSX's, but the OCM would be able to load those games, I would understand.

Anyway, good luck!

By Huey

Prophet (2644)

Huey's picture

24-10-2006, 14:33

Someone said that noone complained about the Japanese company not releasing for MSX, and that's not true. Atleast I did.
That was me!Big smile
I was talking about the japanese (the service was only available for them). They are much much furter than us non-asians who still think in platforms. Games are games. Some games are good and some are bad. The original hardware doesn't make them better or worse either.

I'd say there's a 0.01% chance of MSX'ers warezing it ripped, and a 99% chance of some PC'er hacking and spreading the MSX-player version of the game.
Thats not true and you know it. The MSX version wouldn't have any copy protection. The Windows version does. And more important, the 99% of windows users warezing games are more interested in the latest DIVX, PS2 game or some new 3d shooter than an old MSX game. The MSX scene had and still has a big userbase that do copy games (copying from friends or getting them from internet). Thats not a secret.

{disclaimer}
all numbers and percentages i mention are or are not representable because there are no official figures know from any oficially party.
{/disclaimer} Tongue

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9766)

wolf_'s picture

24-10-2006, 14:39

A little Q for Bazix in between: Since Bazix is obviously present on MSX fairs and such, would it be possible to buy a game on such a fair, and pay for it on the fair (and prolly receive a downloadlink after the fair)? This could be interesting for ppl who won't wish to (or can't) pay over the net.

By Algorythms

Champion (285)

Algorythms's picture

24-10-2006, 17:52

Huey: Seems you are mixing allot of stuff together here. To clarify:

1. MSX users (believe it or not) have a sence of unity and support for the few still developing for MSX. Do you see allot of illegal copying of the new stuff? I don't believe so. For old so called abandonware, yes, there is.

2. Windows users in general have no sence of unity since pretty much everyone have a PC with windows. To say that they do not want MSX games is to give Woomb their deathsentence, since that's their target public. Besides, some MSX games are popular because they are the origin of some new popular sequels. And it's not just about demand, but the thrill of cracking.

3. I said I believe there is a 99% CHANCE that PC users will hack it and distribute. I did NOT say that 99% of PC users will hack it Wink

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

25-10-2006, 11:07

I'm sorry to disappoint you, Algorythms, but - for instance - this thread on MSX Posse shows that you are a bit optimistic on the MSX community not copying new/scene/on-sale products. Within a year after its release, the Deltasoft version of Xak English was available for download online. Of course, they were removed upon request, but by then the damage was already done. Funny how we did not hear about that removal while similar requests from others tend to cause a huge fuzz...

either way - we have received a lot of positive feedback to WOOMB.net and I'm really happy to see many people appreciate it for what it is. I'm also happy to see that, internationally, the news did not go overlooked ^_^. So thanks for all the feedback!

Chiquita, anyone?

By Algorythms

Champion (285)

Algorythms's picture

25-10-2006, 13:21

Ah, well - that story with a happy ending doesn't change my mind. I still think that 99% MSX'ers prefer to buy MSX software (IF THEY CAN), while it's the other way around in the PC world. It also depends on the definition of MSX'er. Let's just agree to disagree.

I still think you should really think about releasing for MSX too. How about an MSX-Player file launcher for MSX? So you could still use the same files and encryption? Would it be too slow?

By Grauw

Ascended (8318)

Grauw's picture

25-10-2006, 16:25

Samor, the difference is that I have a PS2 set up for gaming, and it comes as a nice extra to MGS3 Subsistence which gives me just that one convincing push to buy the game that it’s actually about, it’s not the product itself. (Also, Konami gets a little more credit from me due to past achievements Smile.)

But yeah, in a sense it is the same. It would be really really nice if Konami would distribute those translations and allowed me to buy it Smile.

Wolf wrote:
When chiquita bananas are. But I don't think Chiquita will ever make their bananas compatible, for most ppl would copy/download their bananes then, rather than buy. But most importantly, it's probably in Chiquita's businessplan not to make their bananas compatible with blueMSX.

I don’t really see how DSK or ROM distribution would cause the games to be copied more often. Copying a PC .exe installer is just as easy as copying just the dumps. It actually seems to me that it’s much more difficult to the average user, as you need to set up an emulator first (or even know about the concept).

So, this is quite a moot point.

So I guess there're two things left:
- don't eat Chiquita bananas
- accept Chiquita for what they offer: "Banana-player (tm)"

I think both of those choices are pretty lame…

~Grauw

By Manuel

Ascended (15622)

Manuel's picture

26-10-2006, 09:16

I don’t really see how DSK or ROM distribution would cause the games to be copied more often. Copying a PC .exe installer is just as easy as copying just the dumps. It actually seems to me that it’s much more difficult to the average user, as you need to set up an emulator first (or even know about the concept).

Well, it's a bit more subtle. I took a look at how it works (thanks snout) and you don't need to setup an emulator. You get a launcher program in which you get get the games you paid for. From that program, you can easily run the games simply by selecting them and clicking the PLAY button. The whole thing uses DRM technology stuff to make sure you are the one that is playing the game that you paid for. (snout, feel free to correct this Smile

By MicroTech

Champion (384)

MicroTech's picture

26-10-2006, 11:52

IMHO Woomb is a great opportunity for MSX software to be "legally" available worldwide.
I wish to buy a couple of games but a few points are not very clear to me:

A) If I buy (and download) a "game" from Woomb I will get:
- 1 "Launcher"
- 1 "Game Content"
- a login and a password necessary to run the game with launcher.
Is it correct?

B) login and password are required:
1 - when user connects to woomb to get "Extras"?
2 - every time a user runs "Launcher"
3 - every time a user runs "Game content"?

C) If 2 people buy/download the same "Game Content" they will get different "Launcher" or (most probably) different "Game Content" (probably due to encryption mechanism using login/password as keys).
Is it correct?

Thanks

By Huey

Prophet (2644)

Huey's picture

26-10-2006, 13:09

D.) To play:
a. I need an internet connection
b. I only need an internet connection only to buy a game.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

26-10-2006, 13:31

All correct, Manuel, MicroTech and Huey! After downloading and playing the game for the first time, you can also play it offline (without an internet connection).

By Samor

Paragon (2027)

Samor's picture

26-10-2006, 13:34

and the extra's are great, if I may say so.
Smile

By MicroTech

Champion (384)

MicroTech's picture

26-10-2006, 14:30

Thanks Snout for your quick answer.

IMHO one of the first "VHDL improvements to the OCM specification" distributed by D4E could (should) be a Woomb's "Game Content" launcher.
It would permit all ocm users to run "legal" MSX software (even if embedded in a Windows .exe).
And it would probably be hacker-proof (at least for some time Tongue).

By Imanok

Paragon (1142)

Imanok's picture

26-10-2006, 14:31

So, if I understand correctly, you need internet connection at the PC you are going to play the game, at least for the first time??

Then... will a person who doesn't have internet connetion (and downloads the game at a friend's house or wherever) be able to play the downloaded game at home??... because if it's not possible, I think you should include 'internet connection' at the minimum requirements.

btw... I add myself to the list of people who prefers to play the games on a real MSX.

By Grauw

Ascended (8318)

Grauw's picture

26-10-2006, 17:20

Well, it's a bit more subtle. I took a look at how it works (thanks snout) and you don't need to setup an emulator. You get a launcher program in which you get get the games you paid for. From that program, you can easily run the games simply by selecting them and clicking the PLAY button. The whole thing uses DRM technology stuff to make sure you are the one that is playing the game that you paid for. (snout, feel free to correct this
Ok, so it’s not as simple as copying the installer. But nothing is hack-proof. Anyways, what I was saying is not that people using WOOMB were required to setup an emulator, but rather that it has been simplified for them exactly like that. And I think for most users in WOOMB’s target audience, they won’t even know what to do if they happened to find an illegaly copied DSK or ROM image of a WOOMB release somewhere (and if they do, they can find a lot of ‘free’ stuff anyway). So if WOOMB would add the DSK and ROM formats to their distribution, I think it will only increase their customer base, and not cause a decrease because of illegal copying. Probably it won’t increase by much (after all, the target audience isn’t big), but you could consider it as a courtesy to the MSX community Smile.

IMHO one of the first "VHDL improvements to the OCM specification" distributed by D4E could (should) be a Woomb's "Game Content" launcher.
It would permit all ocm users to run "legal" MSX software (even if embedded in a Windows .exe).
And it would probably be hacker-proof (at least for some time ).

I’d not like to see DRM be built into the one-chip-MSX. Even putting the ideological objections aside, from a practical point of view it is not the only MSX platform I will be using, after all.

~Grauw