MSX3 is Controversial?

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By PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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22-12-2022, 17:52

Grauw wrote:

Honestly it’s a bit of a shame to reject the points where MSX2/2+ excels the most among other 8-bit computers, that is in graphical fidelity (resolution, colours). And perhaps in processing speed too if you consider the turboR. In these aspects, MSX has qualities that are only matched by 16-bit systems.

Effectively it was not common a 8 bit system with 128Kb of VRam and 256 color modes. Even the blitter was an interesting thing... maybe their goal was to avoid sw drawing and not performances but the VDP Blitter in logical commands is a good example of hw abstraction... ;-)

引用:

....Engineers and managers from ASCII, Yamaha, Panasonic, Konami, etc. That would give an extremely interesting insight in the business world that created MSX, something which is quite obscured to us because back than Japan was quite closed due to communication barriers like distance, language and culture, and this applies to the Japanese business even more so.

I would have got some insight like the ones that karl guttag give us for a Yamaha Engineer that worked on V99x8. This would sced a lot of light about speculations on Yamaha VDPs

By PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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22-12-2022, 17:56

gdx wrote:

Another clue that suggests that the TMS should not have been in the MSX1: It is the only component that is not made in Japan.

Nah, i do not agree. MSX is made of "standard" on the market components. They choosed what the market had to offer. Maybe the best if one would not afford a custom chip.
Ironically,they would have been forced to custom chips as many other vendors with later generations...

By Pac

Scribe (7007)

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22-12-2022, 19:40

Edevaldo wrote:
引用:

Honestly what would be really awesome if some Japanese documentary maker made a deep dive documentary series about MSX, with interviews with all involved parties (not just Mr. Nishi). Engineers and managers from ASCII, Yamaha, Panasonic, Konami, etc.

That would be phenomenal.

For sure opinions from different parties would give us a clear overview. Anyway, you could ask Nishi yourselves in Barcelona meeting, now that attendance is confirmed Wink :

https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1605759351267815424...

By gdx

Enlighted (6214)

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23-12-2022, 02:07

PingPong wrote:

Nah, i do not agree. MSX is made of "standard" on the market components. They choosed what the market had to offer.

Giving his opinion is a good point provided that he was supported with arguments. There you give a somewhat naive dreamer's opinion. Throw a blow on the MSX PCBs. Only some MSXs made outside Japan have a few components that are not made in Japan.

PingPong wrote:

additionally, Yamaha proved to do well chips with the v9990.

I didn't say that Yamaha was doing bad chips. I said he had released VDPs still too late and he should have lower the price of MSX-Audio chip over time.
The v9990 is a derivative of the "v9978". And that is why I say that if the MSX3 had come out in time, MSX3 would have been better than the Amiga or the Atari 520ST. We would have had excellent games.

PingPong wrote:

Even with only 64K of VRAM MSX2 would have been a decent machine.

Yes, a decent machine but not enough for an MSX2. Especially to display the Kanjis that had appeared.

PS: I would like to specify that I know that there are several reasons which contributed to the end of the MSX but Yamaha was the major. It's still just my opinion but which is based on several facts.

By PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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23-12-2022, 09:54

引用:
gdx wrote:
PingPong wrote:

Nah, i do not agree. MSX is made of "standard" on the market components. They choosed what the market had to offer.

Giving his opinion is a good point provided that he was supported with arguments. There you give a somewhat naive dreamer's opinion. Throw a blow on the MSX PCBs. Only some MSXs made outside Japan have a few components that are not made in Japan.

saying that the TMS vdp should not be on msx because it is not manufactured in japan is the same. It is a your opinion/deduction. It is not supported by anything.
Now i ask you: what were the alternatives made in japan in terms of VDP? None. They choosed what was available.

引用:
PingPong wrote:

additionally, Yamaha proved to do well chips with the v9990.

I didn't say that Yamaha was doing bad chips. I said he had released VDPs still too late and he should have lower the price of MSX-Audio chip over time.
The v9990 is a derivative of the "v9978". And that is why I say that if the MSX3 had come out in time, MSX3 would have been better than the Amiga or the Atari 520ST. We would have had excellent games.

1) v9978 is a legend: there is no evidence that existed. a document is around but the tech specs are the V9990 specs.
So probably the V9990 was a re-coded model number of the V9978 that yamaha did to made clear that is not a successor of V9958. Nothing more. The chip architecture is very different and this prevent a compatibility without incurring in the same poor design that already had the V99x8 compatibility with TMS.
2) the evidence is that the v9978 specs are exactly the same of v9990 specs. There is no single row that mention some kind of compatibility with v9958

PingPong wrote:

Even with only 64K of VRAM MSX2 would have been a decent machine.

Yes, a decent machine but not enough for an MSX2. Especially to display the Kanjis that had appeared.

It's your opinion. Ka njis cound be displayed even with 64K as proved by some models that use screeen 6. Here color depth is not important.

引用:

PS: I would like to specify that I know that there are several reasons which contributed to the end of the MSX but Yamaha was the major. It's still just my opinion but which is based on several facts.

No, you are blaming yamaha of delays etc.
Yamaha is a manufacturer. If nishi wanted a super OPL chip at the cost of 1 € it is not a problem of yamaha. It's a nishi problem. the same apply to hypotetical delays in yamaha VDPs.
I ask you. Why there was no problems with others Yamaha chips used by sega in SMS?

By Pentarou

Hero (523)

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23-12-2022, 13:30

Grauw wrote:

Honestly what would be really awesome if some Japanese documentary maker made a deep dive documentary series about MSX, with interviews with all involved parties (not just Mr. Nishi). Engineers and managers from ASCII, Yamaha, Panasonic, Konami, etc.

If something like that would happen (and If it's anything like the Japanese documentaries I've seen), it would be a shallow look at the base history, leaving out many details, and with people being polite to each other.

If someone is interested, there are some interviews with Nishi, Yamaha LSI engineers, Victor MSX engineers and some excerpts from Masayoshi Son's biography on ASCII.jp website.
Some links have already appeared in MSX.org in the past.
I find Masayoshi Son's attempt/menace to bring a competing/alternative standard to MSX extremely interesting, and unfortunately it's never mentioned.

By PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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23-12-2022, 14:12

Pentarou wrote:

If someone is interested, there are some interviews with Nishi, Yamaha LSI engineers, Victor MSX engineers and some excerpts from Masayoshi Son's biography on ASCII.jp website.
Some links have already appeared in MSX.org in the past.
I find Masayoshi Son's attempt/menace to bring a competing/alternative standard to MSX extremely interesting, and unfortunately it's never mentioned.

I think it is interesting for a lot of us. Can you point us to some more detailed resources instead of the ascii.jp website ?

By gdx

Enlighted (6214)

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23-12-2022, 14:19

PingPong wrote:

Now i ask you: what were the alternatives made in japan in terms of VDP? None. They choosed what was available.

This is precisely one of arguments I said: Since Yamaha's version was not ready, there was no alternative made in japan. Big smile

PingPong wrote:

the evidence is that the v9978 specs are exactly the same of v9990 specs. There is no single row that mention some kind of compatibility with v9958

There was no documentation of V9978. Only a vague little description. It's normal (and common) that it only describes what's new.

By PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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23-12-2022, 17:11

引用:
gdx wrote:
PingPong wrote:

Now i ask you: what were the alternatives made in japan in terms of VDP? None. They choosed what was available.

This is precisely one of arguments I said: Since Yamaha's version was not ready, there was no alternative made in japan. Big smile

I agree that there were no alternatives, but i think for msx1 nishi not even tryed to seek for a new VDP staying to TMS.
Strangely, the MSX parternship with yamaha started with MSX2 and the need of a more performant VDP.
This is proved by the fact that MSX1 is made with all standard, available on the market, components.
Z80, TMS VDP, General Instruments, PPI.... There is nothing custom. Some MSX do not have even a MSX-Engine....
It is clear what the original philosophy was and also how this changed on MSX2

引用:
PingPong wrote:

the evidence is that the v9978 specs are exactly the same of v9990 specs. There is no single row that mention some kind of compatibility with v9958

There was no documentation of V9978. Only a vague little description. It's normal (and common) that it only describes what's new.

No, if you read the documentation you see that IS EXACTLY the same we read on V9990, same words, same points. Very weird, too much weird. And if this chip was intended as an upgrade of existing vdps with compatibility it's at least inusual that it nowhere say "compatible with v9958'.

Instead, there is no single evidence that proves that this chip existed, even as a prototype (as a V9990 with V9958 compatible core). This is only an urban legend caused by the fact that yamaha changed the model number from v9978 to v9990. It is common when a project was under development, maybe the V9978 signature was an internal or non definitive model number.

The V9958 docs clearly say that is almost fully compatible with v9938, highlighing only what is changed.
On the V9990 there was no need to say that is compatible or not, because it was clear simply by reading tech specs.

The V9990 IS the V9978 "renumbered".
To me it does sound like nishi had required the v9958 compatibility on the same chip, but yamaha refused to do it because of tech reasons, maybe proposing a new MSX-ENGINE with v9958 inside. After things broke, the V9978 was renamed to V9990...

Maybe also that they changed the model number to highlight the fact that this is a VDP that has nothing to do with predecessors. And even from a tech point of view it would be extremely complex to achieve compatibility. they never tryed to achieve this. it is more likely that a MSX3 would have got v9958 integrated into a new MSX-ENGINE instead.

By ducasp

Paladin (680)

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23-12-2022, 18:24

I think Nishi already told that:

- MSX3 would be R800 + 9978 and also some more features (I think R800 DMA would be used too)
- TURBO-R was just a way to try to not lose all the money invested, waiting any longer for 9978 would cause R800 to no longer be that hot and it was what they could do to try to keep MSX afloat, Nishi didn't like calling it msx3 because that wasn't what they thought for it
-Yamaha asked ASCII permission to use parts of THE cancelled 9978 design in a new chip so they could at least try to recover some of their own investment

So, it is fair to assume 9978 would have 9958 features + 9990, MSX was always backwards compatible and 9990 alone doesn't have text modes and emulating 9958 is something unthinkable for that era. 9990 doesn't have any 9958 legacy because it didn't make sense to pay royalties for that legacy that is based on TI property for a design no longer being target for an MSX (they sold to whoever was interested, seems it was part of some PC video cards and of some Pachinko or arcade machines, not sure). Also, on a MSX3 it doesn't make much sense to have a 9958 + 9990 (separate chips) as this would cost quite a bit more, you would need vram for both, you would need some kind of video switching or to compose images in the same output, a really expensive proposition.

I think this is the first time that I have ever heard someone thinking that 9978 would be only 9990 / new features and have no legacy.

Note: I fully agree that 9958 + 9990 on a single chip is a challenge and most likely the reason 9978 never got out, probably ASCII had a contract not much favorable for them in terms of delivery date and delays so it would be cheaper, and Yamaha took advantage of that to have resources allocated to more lucrative business (I.e.: sega), this is surely speculation but it is the only way to understand those delays, ASCII not pocketing money from Yamaha because of it and Turbo-R being born with 9958 Hannibal

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