policies suggestion

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Par Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

Portrait de Sonic_aka_T

02-07-2007, 21:33

hmmmm, paaaaaaaaancaaaaaaaaaaaakesssss.... *DREWLINGHOMERSMILEY*

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9903)

Portrait de wolf_

02-07-2007, 21:39

BA-team I have a cat.

Par poke-1,170

Paragon (1765)

Portrait de poke-1,170

02-07-2007, 21:47

who likes em with cheese and who with apples ?

Par Abi

Hero (600)

Portrait de Abi

02-07-2007, 22:23

Cheese Yummie, and Bacon is sometimes also tasty!

Par arnold_m

Master (173)

Portrait de arnold_m

02-07-2007, 22:25

I think Sonic_aka_T has brushed away some objections a little too easily, and now some people are trying to drown legitimate discussion about the MRC policies in talk about pancakes and a cat.


You also declare to periodically check the policies for changesThis means you don't get to say "Oh, I didn't know I couldn't post my Konami warez collection on the forum?!? You sure that was in the policies? It wasn't last time I checked!" This is the basic principle of any legal system by the way. Every citizen (of age) of every country is obliged to know the laws of that country (all 1743 volumes of 'em) and is obliged to have knowledge of any new laws passed. You don't get to say "I didn't know that was illegal".
I think it would make sense to properly announce changes in the policies, rather than to let users periodically check the policies.

1.4 By disagreeing with this agreement/these policies you agree to cease using the MRC and its services immediately. This policy will stay in effect, even if you disagree with the terms of the agreement. Disagreeing with the agreement/these policies does not grant you any rights to violate the rulings of these policies.Also fairly standard. This means that the rules still apply if you don't agree with them. So no "I'm sorry Mr. Judge, but I don't agree with that whole Murder being Illegal thing, so I won't be going to jail..."
The first sentence goes way beyond that, it's more like "since you think the speed limits should be increased, you may no longer drive a car". As the rule in the first sentence has been openly violated in this thread, without anyone arguing that the violators should be punished or banned, it would be best to keep only the rest of article 1.4.

2.4 MRC preserves the right not to publish submitted content or to alter the distribution package of the submitted content, before or after publication, without prior consent.This means we have the right not to publish the pictures of someone's naked grandma if those are submitted. I hope you agree with this rule. It also means that if we do decide to publish those pictures we get to package them in a ZIPped .dsk file, even if the original was sent to us in a PMA file.
The description "to alter the distribution package of the submitted content" a bit general. It seems to include adding a small text-file (msx.org) as well. The MRC may be able to reassure some potential submitters by stating exactly what it will and will not do without prior consent.

3.2 MRC does not claim any copyrights to user submitted content. In accordance with 2.1 however, MRC may publish submitted content, without limitation, at its own discretion, in any form availableThis means that MRC does not claim copyright to any work you submit (meaning you're still the owner), but that we do get to distribute it (as in it stays on the site) once you decide to submit it.

The MRC claims far more than just right to let the user submitted content stay on the site, it claims the right to publish without limitation in any form available. The copyright holder loses the exclusiveness of his/her right to reproduce the content in any form, rather than just the exclusiveness of the right to put the content on a website.

Par Bart

Paragon (1422)

Portrait de Bart

02-07-2007, 22:47

I don't think "nuff is said" Smile Hanso, you write "we" in your last reply and you say that you (plural):

It is the other content we do not really agree on.

Sonic already explained that article 3.2 states content will remain your copyright. The only thing you're giving up when submitting content is the right to have it taken offline from MRC. Once you've submitted content we decide if we keep it online or not. I really don't see the problem because any content you submit to a public website will be mirrored and copied to other public websites aswell nowadays. Just take a look at archive.org and google.com. If you don't want stuff to be public, don't submit it. Not on MRC and not anywhere else.

Par snout

Ascended (15184)

Portrait de snout

02-07-2007, 23:01

Aside from that, MRC -does- always announce policy updates on the frontpage (just check here, for instance on when we last changed the policies).

Par Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

Portrait de Sonic_aka_T

02-07-2007, 23:06

@arnold: it's really just a matter of being able to plot your own course I suppose. It doesn't really matter what policies we put online, there will always be someone who disagrees with them. I don't really know why this debate on our 1.5 year old policy change got started (well, maybe I do...), but as you may understand it's hardly an option to change (and translate to 4 other languages) our policies every time someone finds something which isn't as it should be (in their opinion).

These policies were not made to protect the authors of software submitted to the MRC or MRC's user base, they were made to protect the MRC. And while I feel MRC's user base does probably benefit from the most part of our policies (and certainly what the policies aim to do) it is indeed a big-ass-legal-disclaimer designed to protect the MRC and most of all it's content. I don't need to tell you the MRC doesn't have the cash to have a lawyer draw up some policies, so I'm sure it suffers from the same awkward signs of amateurism as the rest of the site (and probably most of the MSX scene) does.

Regarding policy changes, we always announce those, as we did when this policy was put online. This clause is merely intended to cover the period between a policy update and the news post about that update (and the translation of those news posts which sometimes takes a few days, depending on the site). It also covers any minor changes such as typos, formatting and translations.

Regarding clause 1.4, I suppose it would indeed stay in effect without the first line of the paragraph as I think the last part pretty much covers most legal situations. As you noted yourself no one was asked to leave the site or stop using MRC indeed.

Clause 2.4 does indeed also cover that darn MSX.ORG file which I really hope we'll stop using. It also covers making .dsk files which we've been doing for many demos lately and making LZH archives for content submitted in uncompressed or zipped/rarred form. The fact that we don't specify exactly in what type of package we'll distribute is just a matter of convenience. Whether it's zipped, rarred or in some yet to be invented package makes very little difference.

Clause 3.2 does not mean MRC claims anything. The author grants us that right, or doesn't... The author does indeed loose exclusivity, but that's normal when you submit something to another site. The only difference with MRC is that this means it'll be online for the foreseeable future. I suppose it would be possible to narrow down in what form MRC will and/or will not distribute the content, but again, all this means is more time/work/effort for an already stressed MRC crew.

I guess this debate shouldn't really be about whether or not MRC's policies are flawless/perfect or not, as I'm sure they're not. It's more about none of the MRC crew (well, at least not myself) really caring enough to be arsed to change, update, translate and post about them. MRC's download db is a freeware downloads db, which really means you should only submit freeware to it. And there's really not much these policies allow MRC to do which they wouldn't be able to do with freeware in any event.

Hope that clarifies at least some points...

Par Edwin

Paragon (1182)

Portrait de Edwin

02-07-2007, 23:30

The reason why the debate is now is probably because nobody actually read them up till now.

Anyway, the big problem with the policies is basically the contradiction. On the one hand members stress (and rightfully so) that this is a hobby project, but on the other hand the policies read like those from a professional organisation. This is mainly because it focusses on the negative and on the things that mrc *can* do while not saying a word about what mrc won't do. If the description added some details about what the rights you 'take' are meant for and what they are not meant for, then it would look a whole lot more like something from a hobby website.

Par Bart

Paragon (1422)

Portrait de Bart

02-07-2007, 23:38

I'd certainly appreciate it if those who think the policies should be changed (a bit) come up with ready-made suggestions. That may sound a bit like a lazy bum, but I think it will be hard enough to come up with alterations to the policies in our public forum which are acceptable to all of you and will still respect the general idea MRC has regarding the ToS. If a good proposal comes up, we most certainly will seriously consider and discuss it.

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