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DIY 2MB and 4MB memory mapper

DIY 2MB and 4MB memory mapper

par HansO on 06-09-2018, 20:25
Sujet: Hardware
Étiquettes: memory mapper, DIY
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Andrey Koryakin has designed an internal memory mapper of 2M and 4MB for MSX2 and MSX2+ computers with a real physical Z80 chip. The processor has to be moved from the mainboard to the memory mapper PCB. After that this complete PCB will be put back to the place where the Z80 came from.

Memory registers and back annotation are supported.

This PCB has been tested on Sony HB-F1XD, HB-F1XD MK2, HB-F1XDJ, HB-F1XV, Panasonic FS-A1 MK2 and FS-A1F.
It should work on any MSX2 or MSX2+ where a physical Z80 IC is used as CPU.

You can find the full article on the MSX Info Pages with a circuit diagram, an Eagle PCB design and many images. Also note the other regular updates on this page.

Relevant link: RAM expansion module

Commentaires (20)

Par gdx

Enlighted (6213)

Portrait de gdx

09-09-2018, 11:48

On the linked page, the start screen displays 2048KB. Why are internal 64K ignored?

Par Giangiacomo Zaffini 2

Champion (286)

Portrait de Giangiacomo Zaffini 2

09-09-2018, 13:15

Pretty lovely. And impressive.
A question: - would It work with a MSX-DOS2 rom or NEXTOR rom on a plain old MSX 1?

Par gdx

Enlighted (6213)

Portrait de gdx

09-09-2018, 14:01

Giangiacomo Zaffini 2 wrote:

would It work with a MSX-DOS2 rom or NEXTOR rom on a plain old MSX 1?

Theoretically, yes. If the MSX hardware supports this extension and if there is room around the CPU and if the MSX has a free signal /SLTSL, it should work with NEXTOR. MSX-DOS2 requires a patch to work on MSX1. Without Nextor the main Rom requires a patch to put the pages of Memory Mapper in order at start.

Par lintweaker

Champion (464)

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09-09-2018, 15:27

Nice! Neat 'trick' using the 74373 for back annotation!

Par kansaizine

Supporter (13)

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10-09-2018, 09:12

It seems that the built-in 64 KB RAM is removed.

Par meits

Scribe (6543)

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10-09-2018, 10:52

Is it removed or is the new mapper put in the same slot?

Par roadfighter

Champion (461)

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14-11-2018, 06:06

Would it matter if the 74hc chips were replaced by 74ls series?
Signal and timing wise ?

Par Edevaldo

Master (154)

Portrait de Edevaldo

15-11-2018, 02:59

Quote:

Would it matter if the 74hc chips were replaced by 74ls series?
Signal and timing wise ?

You should not use HC devices on MSX machines. HCT should be used instead. When a real TTL device drives a signal it drives it with a voltage in the order of ~3.5V (this varies a lot). CMOS (HC) devices need about 3.5V to recognize a high logic level reliably. So while this may work most of the time, over time you will see unreliable behavior.

TTL devices are guaranteed to drive the high level > 2.4V and they recognize high level as ben >2V. So CMOS can drive TTL reliably, the opposite is not true. Adding a pullup resistor helps. But it is better just to use HCT or regular TTL (LS, S, AS, F...).

HCT devices have their input levels tweaked so theu can recognize TTL levels reliably.

Par gdx

Enlighted (6213)

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16-11-2018, 00:56

Edevaldo wrote:

You should not use HC devices on MSX machines..

It depends on the use. We can see HC chips in various MSX hardware without causing any problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7400-series_integrated_circuits

Par Edevaldo

Master (154)

Portrait de Edevaldo

16-11-2018, 05:16

Quote:

It depends on the use. We can see HC chips in various MSX hardware without causing any problem.

We can analyze those cases if you have one. In most cases mixing NMOS & TTL level devices with HC CMOS or CD4000 CMOS devices requires extra circuitry to not result in unreliable behavior. Just use real TTL parts or HCT parts and you will never have an issue.

Even the original NMOS z80 cannot drive HC devices reliably.

On the other side if all parts in a machine are CMOS, including Z80 etc. HC parts can be used with no problem. But the device that connect the the inputs and receive the data bus on the cartridge slots still need to recognize TTL levels. Otherwise some cartridges may simply not work on that machine. Same for printer port busy input and other interfaces.

The schematic of this Mapper is a good example of circuit that will have problems. The Z80 in the picture is an NMOS device driving all those HC control devices. The memory has proper TTL level inputs and will be driven reliably by the Z80. But the HC devices will not be too happy with the the Z80 signals. A slightly hotter day, a slightly higher load on the bus and the circuit will eventually fail to read or write the memory, or access the wrong address. Change to HCT devices and it will perform flawlessly.

HCT and HC devices can be mixed freely, by the way. Just don't drive HC parts with NMOS or TTL devices and it will be ok.

Par gdx

Enlighted (6213)

Portrait de gdx

17-11-2018, 00:35

There are some HC chips in the Turbo R for example. The problem with DIY hardware is it is often done by hobbyists. In addition, many people choose the most economical or simplest method and sacrifice optimal functioning. So yes, there are some differences to be taken into account to use the HC chips but do not say "Do not use it".

PS: Many MSX support CMOS Z80. I put it in my HX-10.

Par Edevaldo

Master (154)

Portrait de Edevaldo

17-11-2018, 02:00

Quote:

PS: Many MSX support CMOS Z80. I put it in my HX-10.

CMOS Z80 would work on any MSX without issues. They are compatible with TTL levels.
The same is true for V9938/58, 82C55, and possibly all MSX engines. They are CMOS but compatible with TTL levels as HCT/ACT devices are.

Par Edevaldo

Master (154)

Portrait de Edevaldo

17-11-2018, 02:42

Quote:

So yes, there are some differences to be taken into account to use the HC chips but do not say "Do not use it".

Particularly if somebody has to ask, I'll repeat, never use an HC device on an MSX or it may bite you back. There is no guarantee an HC device can understand TTL voltage levels. If you are lucky, the delays will be longer and consumption will be higher or it will not work at all. If you are unlucky you may be left with an intermittent problem.

Let's say you want to design a cartridge to work on MSX machines... The later models will have MSX engine devices driving the buses. They will provide CMOS levels and unsderstand TTL levels, life is easy. Most MSX1 machines and many MSX2 machines are not like that. They are all TTL and your cartridge will not be guaranteed to work. So if you want your cartridge to work on different machines, don't use HC.

HC & HCT devices cost the same. One of them will always work. There are book chapters written on it, many application notes. Even the Wikipedia link you sent talks about TTL-compatible voltage levels.

Turbo-R is a good design in that regard. They use many HC and a few TTL LS where they absolutely have to.

Par roadfighter

Champion (461)

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18-11-2018, 13:37

Thanks or for the info on the types of chips and there signals.

Par Wierzbowsky

Guardian (3597)

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21-04-2019, 16:40

The page is gone. Could someone take a look please?

Par Robby

Master (217)

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23-04-2019, 11:41

It's rebuild (static) by TFH, see:
https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/off-topic/april-fool?page=5

Par Alexus

Supporter (14)

Portrait de Alexus

27-04-2019, 22:32

download here https://drive.google.com/file/d/13p2H-qnYh9lkikUKcqoFk45xB-Y...

Par tfh

Prophet (3346)

Portrait de tfh

03-05-2019, 16:19

https://hansotten.file-hunter.com/do-it-yourself/memory-mapp...
The page is restored, thanks to Hans & Alucard, who helped me getting the correct files.

Par Gregory

Champion (260)

Portrait de Gregory

30-04-2023, 23:35

lintweaker wrote:

Nice! Neat 'trick' using the 74373 for back annotation!

What is the purpose of the back-annotoation and how does it work in this schematic?

Par Gregory

Champion (260)

Portrait de Gregory

11-05-2023, 00:00

Edevaldo wrote:
Quote:

So yes, there are some differences to be taken into account to use the HC chips but do not say "Do not use it".

Particularly if somebody has to ask, I'll repeat, never use an HC device on an MSX or it may bite you back. There is no guarantee an HC device can understand TTL voltage levels. If you are lucky, the delays will be longer and consumption will be higher or it will not work at all. If you are unlucky you may be left with an intermittent problem.

Let's say you want to design a cartridge to work on MSX machines... The later models will have MSX engine devices driving the buses. They will provide CMOS levels and unsderstand TTL levels, life is easy. Most MSX1 machines and many MSX2 machines are not like that. They are all TTL and your cartridge will not be guaranteed to work. So if you want your cartridge to work on different machines, don't use HC.

HC & HCT devices cost the same. One of them will always work. There are book chapters written on it, many application notes. Even the Wikipedia link you sent talks about TTL-compatible voltage levels.

Turbo-R is a good design in that regard. They use many HC and a few TTL LS where they absolutely have to.

On the Super Turbo the schematic also uses HC components and the reason given is for 'speed' since the circuit is used to increase the clock frequency of Z80. The article says that HCT, LS components can't keep up. I don't know if this is the case. I built the super turbo with HC parts and didn't have any difficulties. Are there really alternatives to HC if speed is of the essence?