What have you in mind to do with OCM ?

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Par dvik

Prophet (2200)

Portrait de dvik

13-12-2006, 19:23

could be .. but will be? How many people *will* do it like this if it would be available?
Good question. I'm not sure what people will do with their OCM (if anything at all). I guess developing a good media app like MythTV would take some time so thats probably not the first app to show up. It would be pretty cool though Smile (Besides, mr Gates predicted the MSX to be used in media and he has never been wrong, right?)
I think if there was a ftp client or something similar, many users would use their PC to store MSX games and download them to the OCM when needed. TCP/IP would of course also be nice in games.

Imagine having network drives in SymbOS, so you can access your PC files from the OCM. Very cool Smile

Par Hydlide

Master (171)

Portrait de Hydlide

13-12-2006, 19:54

@Tanni:

I would like the MSX users define the standard for the next MSX systems by themselves. There must be discussions on that issue, and it will take some time. We need not come up with that in a few month. It also will become ''difficult'' to define such a standard when hardware can be changed by reconfigurating the system.

of course i meant users should have input. BUT, and this is a biggie: eventually someone will need to make a decision. From professional experience i know that if everyone keeps discussing, there will be no end. I think Bazix/D4E/MSXAssoc should be the parties to decide, okay, enough, this is what we will do.

@wolf_:
I ask myself: why browse/email the net with the OCM? I can imagine multiplayer-games over the net. But browsing/mailing? And it's not whether the OCM is capable enough (no doubt it will, esp. when taking SymbOS into account), but whether ppl really want to do their Office stuff on their OCM, rather than on their PC/Mac.

Well, email, internet was just an example, but I'd see a WOOMB connection here. Without networking the OCM is not as versatile as it can be. Look at the Wii, not only can you play games downloaded through internet (WOOMB anyone?), but also send messages and browse the internet. Heck if my mobile phone can do that, I certainly want the OCM to do that. and yes, I know browsing and email is secondary (a PC/mac is much easier for that), butit is certainly a feature I'd consider. Not to mention I would like some sort of PDA capability.. Let the OCM display an on-screen message for an event I specified.. Let the OCM really be part of the home, that's what I mean.. not just a gadget for geeks Smile

heck, I was talking to ivke2006 and talked about a sub-sub notebook powered by OCM .. a lightweight terminal for all kind of stuff.. Develop a decent USB stack and endless possibilities: wifi, bluetooth, etc

far fetched, but imagine this: instead of your Microshit powered PDA you could zip out your 5 inch OCM powered device, play games, connect to internet, chat with friends, etc.

anyway, all I'm saying we should be open to possibilities, and not hold on to the old MSX standards too tightly. If that's going to be the case, then I'll have wasted 250 euros by buying the OCM and I'd rather use an emulator instead of "the real thing".

Par dvik

Prophet (2200)

Portrait de dvik

13-12-2006, 20:05

If that's going to be the case, then I'll have wasted 250 euros by buying the OCM and I'd rather use an emulator instead of "the real thing".
You bring up a good point. The OCM has a lot of potential and is a nice platform for different devices. I think its a quite big chance that we'll soon loose the 'M' in OCM if we go too far from the old MSX standards. Its not really anything bad in developing the VHDL and get the most out of the hardware. The OCM hardware could probably be used as a OCC64 or OCS without any problem, and of course it can be used for something more powerful. But my fear is that the only MSX thing left in the OCM will be the cartridge slot.

But if we can get other scenes to use the OCM hw, like spectrum and c64 or just as a custom vhdl platform, then production and sales could increase significantly which would reduce the price of the OCM which would benifit MSXers who would like to run the plain old boring MSX2 vhdl Smile

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9950)

Portrait de wolf_

13-12-2006, 20:57

tanni: my notebook can do a lot more than this OCM, and I already have one, and more people will have one (as desktop replacement for instance).

So from the perspective of already having a notebook, an OCM for office tasks seems a bit like a waste of time. Look, as far as I see computers, I think today's PC's are the office machines and the workhorses. In the 80's your MSX was also the office machine, but those days are over. I see the 'MSX' (both the old ones as well as the OCM) as a retro machine for games, and perhaps demos. On PC it's less 'done' to do real retro games because ppl could discard you as n00b if you don't make the most 1337 shooter at 1600x1200 res with all details on.. "Electronic Arts marketing" so to say ^_^ On a retromachine you don't need an excuse to do retro stuff, the thing *is* retro.. so you'll do what the machine's good at.

Which doesn't render SymbOS useless btw, tho I'd never use it for office tasks, it's still an extra de luxe filemanager.

So, what I'd personally would like the OCM to become is flexible gameconsole for retrogames.., those games you don't dare to pimp with on PC/PS2|3/M$X360 etc.

In fact, something G9k'ish VHDL code with fast memorymappable 'vram' and decent audio VHDL, and done we be! Let's call these extentions: G9k MK2 and Starsound. Tongue Then with boosted Z80 speed what more do we need?

Par Hydlide

Master (171)

Portrait de Hydlide

13-12-2006, 20:59

@dvik
actually, I proposed people in the Elan Enterprise group to consider this, but they don't seem to be very enthousiastic.. and since most of the group is in Hungary, there's a language barrier (apart from MSX, I also have/collect Elan Enterprise computers).. but the hesitation is more or less founded in the same feelings: afraid to lose touch with the "old" architecture.

i think this is not necessarily the case, even if you implement lots of new features. but if we want to go ahead, maybe some sacrifices must be made, I think. and again, it's always possible to fallback to the original MSX version of course (which still needs some tweaking anyway).

the real question is:
should OCM remain a geek only product which eventually will fade away apart from hardcore users, or should it become (at least try!) to get some marketshare, maybe function as a basis for other developments as well, and attract NEW users, not just the MSX diehards/fanboys/girls. Look at the v-tech computers.. simple, but fun.. and on a platform that's VERY outdated. Really, this was an opportunity missed by Nishi when he worked on the OCMv1.. if he (and MSXAA etc) would've looked further than just MSX compatibility, people would have an OCM instead of a v-tech. (ok, I'm dramatizing, but you get the point, I hope).

I'd prefer to have the OCM become a relative "mainstream" device (okay, it'll always be a niche), where developers could work on new software/extensions and even make some money from it. it doesn't need to be overtaking the PS/Wii/Xbox, but a smallish niche should be possible..

just my opinion of course 8)

Par dvik

Prophet (2200)

Portrait de dvik

13-12-2006, 21:18

Every now and then I wonder, who is actually seriously interested in an OCM that is not MSX2 (+/TR) compatible. I don't know anyone except wolf_ that is interested in doing retro development on an architecture that isn't retro (meaning old). To me that doesn't make sense at all. It reminds me of my compiler class at university. They invented their own simple CPU and computer language to make the class easier. Noone in the world would be interested in their CPU or language.
Creating a new spec for a retro machine intended to just run retro like games sound a bit strange to be honest. I'm quite sure almost all retro gamers and programmers want to use a 'real' old system (could be the MSX2 OCM since it mimics a real old MSX). Noone is interested in half crappy looking games done on a modern machine. There are plenty of existing retro platforms that are a generation or two newer than MSX so there is no need at all to reinvent a similar system.

I think that if the OCM will evolve into something MSX3'ish with a higher spec than TR, it needs to provide something new, like IP stack, USB, and perhaps a joystick controller with accelerometers. Think new, not old.

Par dvik

Prophet (2200)

Portrait de dvik

13-12-2006, 21:20


I'd prefer to have the OCM become a relative "mainstream" device (okay, it'll always be a niche), where developers could work on new software/extensions and even make some money from it. it doesn't need to be overtaking the PS/Wii/Xbox, but a smallish niche should be possible..

Would you call this mainstream device MSX? Just curious. Because to me it sounds like taking the nice OCM hardware and use it for something different than MSX in the original or semi retro perspective.

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9950)

Portrait de wolf_

13-12-2006, 21:28

dvik: just soup-up a potential G9k-VHDL a minor bit, and soup-up a potential Moonsound-VHDL a bit, and we're there already.. it's even all MSX'ish (except that the gfx are fast). Can that be agreeable?
Also, retro in popular culture usually refers to style, not so much to physical stuff. Take that Hung-up track from Madonna for instance, quite a retro-sound I think, but apart from the ABBA sample, I'm sure the whole bunch was made using state of the art modern equipment. My idea about the OCM is the same: make retro-styled games 'n such using a "state of the art" system we can fully control, this system is the OCM, the products we make then are the games..

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9950)

Portrait de wolf_

13-12-2006, 21:30

Would you call this mainstream device MSX?
As I've requested before (but haven't seen any answers yet), describe me what an MSX is.. what 'defines' an MSX and sets it apart from comparible systems from the same era. (and don't come up with 'scene' and 'konami' Tongue stick to hardware)

Par Hydlide

Master (171)

Portrait de Hydlide

13-12-2006, 21:33

Would you call this mainstream device MSX? Just curious. Because to me it sounds like taking the nice OCM hardware and use it for something different than MSX in the original or semi retro perspective.

why not call it MSX?
Keep MSX basic, extend it with new functionality that's implemented, integrate the basic with SymbOS "SDK" and give developers a good environment to work in. Keep the most MSX specs, but add certain features (see an earlier post).
Then it's up to developers to create new software. Games, gadgets, weather widgets, news widgets, whatever.

Heck I don't know every ins and outs (especially what's going on behind the OCM scenes at Bazix et al), and I may be oversimplifying things. "mainstream" is as relative as you want it to be. It's never going to be another microsoft, it's probably going to be smaller than the risc os scene. But as long as developers can make some money by writing good, nice, entertaining software, and maybe extensions, I think there's a future. If OCM remains for die-hards only, it'll be a one-off event without any real additional value.

I think an initiative could be connecting the thing to WOOMB, and be able to download games from there. Of course, lots of things need to be done, but it'd be a nice step.

etc TongueSmile

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