Space Manbow 2 where?

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By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

02-02-2016, 11:38

Grauw wrote:

By the way, even companies like Konami were using "emulators" of sorts when they were developing their MSX software. They would develop on a PC workstation with a Z80 expansion module which allowed them to debug code on that machine in stead of deploying to MSX all the time.

Yes, you are right. But this workstations - development sets - whatever was no emulators. They had a real components.

Anyway, I'm not joking. How is possible that if now we have better tools, better computers, better emulators, etc, we have less development and releases?

By the way... not all companies used workstations or similar in the 80-90 era. And, I think, we have great and awesome games of this era. Also I think Pumpking Adventure 3, Lost Worlds and similar games were developed without emulators. And these games can like you or not, but I think was large and complex projects.

By meits

Scribe (6498)

meits's picture

02-02-2016, 11:51

Ramones wrote:

Anyway, I'm not joking. How is possible that if now we have better tools, better computers, better emulators, etc, we have less development and releases?

Less people, less free time.

By Imanok

Paragon (1191)

Imanok's picture

02-02-2016, 12:03

MrSpock wrote:

Interesting to see how the thread is drifting from "emulators are MSX preservation" to "emulators are indispensable to develop" to "emulators are useful to develop". The last statement is undoubtedly true. The other two are clearly false. As a matter of fact, the first one is the opposite to the reality.

We are also mixing "cross development" with "emulation"

By Grauw

Ascended (10577)

Grauw's picture

02-02-2016, 13:04

MrSpock wrote:

Interesting to see how the thread is drifting from "emulators are MSX preservation" to "emulators are indispensable to develop" to "emulators are useful to develop". The last statement is undoubtedly true. The other two are clearly false. As a matter of fact, the first one is the opposite to the reality.

I do think emulators are MSX preservation in the sense that they capture the details of various machines, components and extensions, so that this knowledge is available to everyone and is not lost as MSX computers (esp. rare ones) become harder and more expensive to obtain. It’s a form of documentation. But I guess this is about semantics and your and my interpretation of the word preservation is likely different.

Emulators are indeed not indispensible to develop, I could program fine when my MSX was my only computer in high school after all. However, for me at the moment they are indispensible in the sense that I would not develop for MSX without it (for earlier mentioned reasons).

(p.s. When I was developing software on the MSX in high school and early university, most of my projects were not completed whereas now they are, despite that I have much less time to spend on MSX nowadays. Hmm, I wonder why.)

Imanok wrote:

We are also mixing "cross development" with "emulation"

The development machines had a Z80 board (could be swapped out for other CPUs) to test and debug the Z80 code on, without deploying to the MSX, so they were more than cross development alone. Maybe it does not fall under the definition of emulation, but it’s similar in concept, to run code meant for MSX in an alien environment. The Konami developers would receive a similar amount of "the spirit of msx" as I do when I develop my software with openMSX.

By Imanok

Paragon (1191)

Imanok's picture

02-02-2016, 13:42

I didn't mean professional cross development, but the one we do (editing and compiling on a modern PC and doing the tests on a real MSX)

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

02-02-2016, 13:59

Grauw wrote:

I do think emulators are MSX preservation in the sense that they capture the details of various machines, components and extensions, so that this knowledge is available to everyone and is not lost as MSX computers (esp. rare ones) become harder and more expensive to obtain. It’s a form of documentation. But I guess this is about semantics and your and my interpretation of the word preservation is likely different.

I understand your point. But this is not keeping the MSX alive, only saving (documenting) the memories of something once called MSX. It's something like those seeds that are being stored to preserve some plants before they become extinct. To truly keep the MSX alive we have to keep using it before it vanishes, not only "storing the seeds" and being comfortable with that. Iup! Philosopher's day! ;-)

Finally, sure, MSX are now harder to find than 30 years ago but... we are less too. Everyone that wants an MSX nowadays can find it easily. They are more expensive than in the 80s? Well... that's right, back in the 80's my parents bought it to me, so it was sort of free from my point of view Smile

Grauw wrote:

Emulators are indeed not indispensible to develop, I could program fine when my MSX was my only computer in high school after all. However, for me at the moment they are indispensible in the sense that I would not develop for MSX without it (for earlier mentioned reasons).

(p.s. When I was developing software on the MSX in high school and early university, most of my projects were not completed whereas now they are, despite that I have much less time to spend on MSX nowadays. Hmm, I wonder why.)

As you told before (I think it was you), now you are a professional developer. So, there is another difference between your childhood and your present age: now you have tons of knowledge and experience you didn't have before. So, another reason (probably the most important one) for you to finish more projects now than before is... experience and knowledge. Not just emulators. And I am sure that most of current MSX developers are in a situation like yours.

Grauw wrote:
Imanok wrote:

We are also mixing "cross development" with "emulation"

The development machines had a Z80 board (could be swapped out for other CPUs) to test and debug the Z80 code on, without deploying to the MSX, so they were more than cross development alone. Maybe it does not fall under the definition of emulation, but it’s similar in concept, to run code meant for MSX in an alien environment. The Konami developers would receive a similar amount of "the spirit of msx" as I do when I develop my software with openMSX.

Yes. Emulation is useful (though not indispensable) in that sense. Emulators are useful (though not indispensable) for development. But in my opinion, they are not useful to preserve the MSX. Let's imagine an alternate universe in which, back in the 80's, those powerful cross-development machines had been freely available to everybody... would the MSX exist nowadays?

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

02-02-2016, 14:04

Grauw wrote:

The Konami developers would receive a similar amount of "the spirit of msx" as I do when I develop my software with openMSX.

Konami developed with those "emulators", not using the emulators for test/debug only. Slightly different.
Anyway, Konami developers would receive amount of money not "MSX spirit". I think, as a professional, you want receive money not spirit/exposure.

By zPasi

Champion (499)

zPasi's picture

02-02-2016, 16:29

MrSpock wrote:

But in my opinion, they are not useful to preserve the MSX.

The emulators help to keep new software coming, which in turn helps to keep MSX alive.

MrSpock wrote:

Let's imagine an alternate universe in which, back in the 80's, those powerful cross-development machines had been freely available to everybody... would the MSX exist nowadays?

Sure it would exist. By "freely" you don't mean "without costs"? That would be absurd.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

02-02-2016, 16:49

zPasi wrote:
MrSpock wrote:

But in my opinion, they are not useful to preserve the MSX.

The emulators help to keep new software coming, which in turn helps to keep MSX alive.

No. That's a fallacy. Emulators have side-effects. They are not only used to help development.

zPasi wrote:
MrSpock wrote:

Let's imagine an alternate universe in which, back in the 80's, those powerful cross-development machines had been freely available to everybody... would the MSX exist nowadays?

Sure it would exist. By "freely" you don't mean "without costs"? That would be absurd.

Yes, by "freely" I meant "without having to pay anything for them". Like emulators.

By Daemos

Paragon (1964)

Daemos's picture

02-02-2016, 17:03

If powerfull developer systems where freely available in the 80's the PC would have allready exsisted and thus there would have been no need for any other system ever. Thus the MSX would be obselete and thus never invented in the first place.

Emulators have side effect well surprise surprise. The MSX has side effects too. We just code around those side effects or never even take notice of them 99% out of the time. Emulators are getting better and better each day and one day they will be so precise no one will notice the difference. Thats where emulation will take over the lead. We have to face the fact that one day each MSX will be trash and then what? We will have two choices:
1. Choose a new hobby.
2. Find a way to keep the software and development running.

Unless. Somebody is clever and rich enough to issue a large batch of new msx computers. That person has to be a multi milionaire to get all the IC's redeveloped and produced. All we can do is to hope that something like that will happen. In the meanwhile the only hope left is emulation. One day we all have to face that bitter fact.

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