MSX Revival: YES or NO

Page 2/4
1 | | 3 | 4

By snout

Ascended (15184)

snout's picture

05-01-2003, 14:01

As far as I know, Nishi is not directly involved in the operation of MSX Association. Nasu and others are running it. Their ideas may not be the same as what Nishi talked about in his Tilburg lecture. For example, MSX PLAYer was not released under an open source license, unlike Nishi announced in his lecture.

The MSX Association website mentions Kazuhiko Nishi being the chairman of the MSX Association.

The MSXPLAYer wasn't released as open source, probably mainly because of the licensing problems with Microsoft. The MSX Association is still attempting to get rid of these problems, but it won't be easy. (Microsoft eh? Tongue)

By mth

Champion (496)

mth's picture

05-01-2003, 14:16

The MSX Association website mentions Kazuhiko Nishi being the chairman of the MSX Association.

But is he actually involved in the decision making? I thought he was teaching/researching PLDs in the USA?

The MSXPLAYer wasn't released as open source, probably mainly because of the licensing problems with Microsoft. The MSX Association is still attempting to get rid of these problems, but it won't be easy. (Microsoft eh? Tongue)

Licensing what from Microsoft? The only things MSX-related that Microsoft owns is the BIOS and BASIC. For releasing the emulator source code, they would have to arrange something with Marat. However, they could always release a patch containing their changes to the fMSX version they started with. There is really no legal issue that is preventing them from releasing (at least part of) the MSX PLAYer source.

There is a business reason though: if they release the source, anyone can make a player that looks and feels like MSX PLAYer, but accepts software from other sources. For example plain ROM and DSK images. Or encrypted packages from a different distributor. That might have a negative impact on their sales. So the decision not to release the sources tells us something about their priorities: sales versus helping the MSX community build better emulators.

By snout

Ascended (15184)

snout's picture

05-01-2003, 14:25

Licensing what from Microsoft? The only things MSX-related that Microsoft owns is the BIOS and BASIC. For releasing the emulator source code, they would have to arrange something with Marat. However, they could always release a patch containing their changes to the fMSX version they started with. There is really no legal issue that is preventing them from releasing (at least part of) the MSX PLAYer source.

OF COURSE THERE IS!

They are not allowed to spread the MSX-BIOS, but certainly they are also not allowed to release software on which you can use illegal MSX-BIOS-es without a problem. Besides. They have to PAY to Microsoft, which means they have to earn money, which means different objectives for the current project.

imho you simply cannot release the source of a program (or the source of a patch) when the program itself isn't free. Especially when there are legal issues with the program itself already. It would be the same thing as: you aren't allowed to copy CD-Audio. But here you have the original master tapes. Have fun with it.

So the decision not to release the sources tells us something about their priorities: sales versus helping the MSX community build better emulators.

No, this is an OFFICIAL emulator. If they want this and future projects to be a success, they need the support of other companies. Not only Microsoft, but also the software companies of which they want to re-release software. Konami, Compile, T&E, Microcabin etc. will not be interested in re-releasing software for an emulator that can run pirated versions that are widely available on the web already. The MSXPLAYer project isn't an amateur project, it's an official, legal, business project. Like it or not, it changes the possibiblities in both positive (other companies might get interesting again) and negative (limited functionality compared to other emulators, because of legal issues) aspects.

By Sander

Ambassador (1863)

Sander's picture

05-01-2003, 14:49

And please note this: if the MSX player doesn't become profitable, the whole revival will end just there. So if you say that it's a shame that the MSX player doesn't play hacked roms or diskimages, think again. Chances are that you are missing the big picture then.

By DarQ

Paragon (1038)

DarQ's picture

05-01-2003, 15:04

still, i would only use an emu that can run illegal shit. So far, no MSXPLAYer for me. Has nice skins though Wink

Why? As developer i need to use the emu to its full extend. Since my real MSX is put away, i can only develop on PC with an emu. But i am not so stupid to work with silly disks on a PC.

By mth

Champion (496)

mth's picture

05-01-2003, 15:58

They are not allowed to spread the MSX-BIOS, but certainly they are also not allowed to release software on which you can use illegal MSX-BIOS-es without a problem.

Not true. CD-writers can illegally copy many CDs without a problem. Yet stores are allowed sell them. It is the responsiblity of the users not to do illegal things.

There are legal BIOSes: the BIOS of MSX machines you own and C-BIOS. So it is possible to use an MSX emulator without breaking any laws.

imho you simply cannot release the source of a program (or the source of a patch) when the program itself isn't free.

Why not? As long as you own the copyrights, you can do with the source what you like. It might not make business sense, but there is no technical or legal barrier.

By the way, Troll Tech releases some of their commercial products as GPL (one of the many open source licenses). But because the license only allows GPL software to use it, companies which want to use Troll Tech's toolkits in their closed source products will still buy the commercial version, which does not have such a restriction. So it is possible to sell and open source the same software and still make money.

Especially when there are legal issues with the program itself already.

Are there? Please explain.

It would be the same thing as: you aren't allowed to copy CD-Audio. But here you have the original master tapes. Have fun with it.

You don't even need the master, the audio CD itself is good enough to have fun with. And I do think people are allowed to have fun with audio CDs, as long as they don't break the law. If I want to create MP3s so I can listen to songs in the train on my PDA, I want to be able to do that. As long as I don't give those MP3s to anyone else, it's perfectly legal.

Konami, Compile, T&E, Microcabin etc. will not be interested in re-releasing software for an emulator that can run pirated versions that are widely available on the web already.

Yes, that makes sense, but it does show their priorities.

Nishi did say that MSX PLAYer would be open sourced. But now it turns out that promise is not compatible with their business model. Maybe an example of different ideas of Nishi and MSX Association?

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

05-01-2003, 16:09

Nishi did say that MSX PLAYer would be open sourced. But now it turns out that promise is not compatible with their business model. Maybe an example of different ideas of Nishi and MSX Association?

He said he WANTED it to. And unfortunately, because of Microsoft he can't.

Same for MSX-DOS2.. Nishi wants to release the sourcecode, but it's being owned by Madge Co. So unless they give the green light, it's not going to happen.

We can't always get what we want!

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

05-01-2003, 16:27

Also, a VERY important thing to remember is: MSX PLAYer is not for us!

The target audience of MSX PLAYer is the MSX'er that isn't MSX'ing anymore, and those that never touched an MSX before.

The MSX PLAYer is NOT FOR US. We are the MSX hobbyist community with our REAL hardware and our own emulators.

Another thing to realize is: The next official MSX computer will not be a desktop model like current MSX computers! If the new MSX will be succesful I can definitely imagine a desktop MSX to appear, but none of you should expect the new MSX to fully replace your current hardware!

Apparently this not understood by some people. Just know ignorance is not an excuse.

By mth

Champion (496)

mth's picture

05-01-2003, 16:29

And please note this: if the MSX player doesn't become profitable, the whole revival will end just there. So if you say that it's a shame that the MSX player doesn't play hacked roms or diskimages, think again. Chances are that you are missing the big picture then.

I think I do see the big picture, but I don't like what I'm seeing.

The MSX community was doing just fine before this revival thing started. I have no use for an emulator that will only let me run a small set of MSX software. I don't want to insert old MSX cartridges in my PC, I just want to emulate them. And there is no point in creating a new hardware platform when we can build MSX compatiblity in software. So far, nothing that MSX Association has produced or planned has improved my MSX-ing.

Don't get me wrong, they are not obliged to do anything for me. I just want to explain why I don't share some people's enthousiasm about the revival.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

05-01-2003, 16:42

Don't get me wrong, they are not obliged to do anything for me. I just want to explain why I don't share some people's enthousiasm about the revival.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about MSX PLAYer either! But what I AM very much enthusiastic about is the possibility MSX PLAYer creates. And that is new MSX games from real companies!

I don't understand people's problems... How can the MSX Revival POSSIBLY negatively affect the MSX community?!

Page 2/4
1 | | 3 | 4