SX-1, MSX games look so much better by VGA than composite.

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By Swami

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20-11-2018, 07:11

Regarding my SX-1: I got a VGA cable and everything looks SOOOO much better than composite! Colors look a little strange for a couple games, not sure what is up with that.

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By Meits

Scribe (5647)

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20-11-2018, 13:43

I bet you haven't seen MSX's RGB on a CRT yet. That beats VGA on a modern flatscreen quite hard.
While at it. Don't you agree it would be nice if the SX-1 threads could better be bundled a bit in stead of creating quite a lot of them? I read nothing but enthousiasm from it, but I guess it would look a tad more tidy on the front page. Wink

By Grauw

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20-11-2018, 17:08

Composite is really crap compared to RGB Smile. I’ve always been using SCART RGB cables with my MSX2 (and up) computers, but that wasn’t a common connector outside Europe. Japanese MSX2 (and up) computers often had an RGB connector as well, but lacking a universal standard like SCART I’m not sure those were actually used that often by Japanese MSX users?

VGA is essentially the same as RGB, but with double the horizontal frequency (30 kHz instead of 15 kHz) so it can have double the vertical resolution (480p instead of 240p). But the 1chipMSX and clones like the Zemmix Neo and SX-1 just output every line twice, so they don’t use the increased resolution (though maybe in interlace mode?).

With my OSCC converter which converts SCART RGB to HDMI, it’s really surprising how high quality the RGB output still is even on modern TVs. Laser sharp pixels.

By Meits

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20-11-2018, 17:13

Grauw wrote:

Laser sharp pixels.

That's what I like about RGB/CRT. It has nothing like that. On graphical use (games/demos) I'd prever that. But since I'm mostly in txt screens the RGB in on my smartTV will do Smile
The OCM won't get an update or any TLC again. It can play MSX1 games quite nice. With a long joystick cable on the couch in the living room it's a nice thing. Just don't look too close as there are a few vertical lines doubled.

By Swami

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20-11-2018, 17:40

I'm in the USA and don't know much about RGB. I think you can use it with something like a Sony PVM monitor, but that's a whole other story. My LCD and CRTs are just the living room models. I've heard about SCART or component to HDMI upscalers, but I I don't know how one would send an RGB through VGA out to a US TV. Maybe a VGA to component adapter or VGA to HDMI adapter? I tried RGB through VGA on my LCD TVs VGA port and set the TV to both VGA and component, but got "unsupported format" from the TV for both. I supposed when it is set to component I need component cables plugged in using some kind of adapter. For PAL consoles, my LCD is multi-regional, I have an old, old CRT TV from 1980-ish with vertical hold adjustment - RF only, for light gun games, and a PAL-to-NTSC (or reverse) A/D converter for a newer 2002-ish CRT TV.

By Grauw

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20-11-2018, 17:56

Although the signals are very similar, the difference in horizontal frequency is why you can’t generally output RGB to VGA or vice versa with a simple adapter cable. Nowadays a conversion box like the OSSC is the best (tho expensive) option. The OSSC also gives much better image quality (sharper & no latency) than the SCART RGB inputs on European flat-panel TVs, because internally they use a cheap chipset just like the cheaper conversion boxes that you can find on eBay and such.

By Swami

Rookie (24)

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20-11-2018, 18:09

Grauw wrote:

Although the signals are very similar, the difference in horizontal frequency is why you can’t generally output RGB to VGA or vice versa with a simple adapter cable. Nowadays a conversion box like the OSSC is the best (tho expensive) option. The OSSC also gives much better image quality (sharper & no latency) than the SCART RGB inputs on European flat-panel TVs, because internally they use a cheap chipset just like the cheaper conversion boxes that you can find on eBay and such.

What do you think of the RetroTINK. I think it may be the same thing without the SCART port.

By Grauw

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20-11-2018, 18:44

I saw a video of it last month... Good points: line doubler, so very low latency, HDMI output so future-proof (VGA inputs are getting rare), and more affordable than the OSSC. Bad points: no RGB input.

I wasn't too impressed mostly due to the absence of RGB. Composite is a no-go for me, the source signal is just too crappy and nothing can make that better. Component is good (similar quality to RGB) but no MSX outputs that. S-Video is OK from what I heard (never used myself as it's rare here), a bit inbetween composite and RGB, but few MSX computers output it (my turboR GT does but my Yamaha CX5M and Philips NMS8245 don't).

I think it may be a bit more oriented to the US consumer device market, where S-Video and component were more prevalent from what I understand, while RGB was rare.

By the way, another benefit of RGB: it can display both 50Hz and 60Hz refresh rates fine. It has no PAL / NTSC incompatibility problems (that's a composite / S-Video only problem), so I could always play Japanese games at their original refresh rates (and actually prefer 60Hz).

By Swami

Rookie (24)

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20-11-2018, 19:47

Grauw wrote:

I saw a video of it last month... Good points: line doubler, so very low latency, HDMI output so future-proof (VGA inputs are getting rare), and more affordable than the OSSC. Bad points: no RGB input.

I guess my question, then, is to get RGB improvements over VGA, what do you hook up to the VGA out port of the SX-1 when it is set to put out RGB? Would a VGA to SCART and VGA to component (YPbPr) adapter give you the same basic information if you hooked the resulting SCART or component connection up to the OSSC SCART or component input? Something tells me a straight VGA to HDMI upscaler would not work, since the V&H sync is gone.

By Swami

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20-11-2018, 19:49

Meits wrote:

While at it. Don't you agree it would be nice if the SX-1 threads could better be bundled a bit in stead of creating quite a lot of them? I read nothing but enthousiasm from it, but I guess it would look a tad more tidy on the front page. Wink

I don't know where this front page posting section is, or are you suggesting someone make an SX-1 section on the front page?

By Meits

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20-11-2018, 21:22

Swami wrote:
Meits wrote:

While at it. Don't you agree it would be nice if the SX-1 threads could better be bundled a bit in stead of creating quite a lot of them? I read nothing but enthousiasm from it, but I guess it would look a tad more tidy on the front page. Wink

I don't know where this front page posting section is, or are you suggesting someone make an SX-1 section on the front page?

There won't be an SX-1 section, but an all covering fan/FAQ/info thread like SofaRUN, MegaFlashROM, SymbOS, Carnivore 2 have. That way you'd keep the topic "SX-1" a bit bundled.

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