MSX scene going banana's?

Enlighted (6033)

31-05-2011, 16:46

This MSX community that we have is like a religion. We believe that the community is right about everything... How ever when community says something it does not mean that it is correct. It simply means that most of the people in the community believe it is correct.

For example 10 years ago when someone said: "I'm planning to make game or demo for MSX1" the reply was about: "MSX1 has this very slow access to VRAM just like MSX2, but it also lacks 2D acceleration, scroll registers etc. and it has terrible color spill problems. You don't really want to go there, MSX2 is the way to go if you are seriously thinking something like this."

We needed L!T and Bandwagon to actually open up our eyes and wake us up from our false believes.

Today when someone says "I'm planning to make game or demo for MSX2" the reply is about: "No! Why would you do that? If you just give up some minor details in outlook you can make the same for MSX1. MSX2 is almost same as MSX1 and if you do it for MSX1 there are more people who can enjoy your work."

My point is that don't be a follower in this religion and don't believe what people tell you to do. Think using your own brains and test different things and approaches. I also hope that you don't just want to do the same but a bit better... Do something different, think different. Long time there was things that I thought were impossible to do because I was told so, but simply trying things more my self helped a lot. I suggest you to do the same thing!

I think this should be pretty clear to anyone, but it feels like everyone is running to same direction all the time and this can't be coinsidence. We lead our self to do so.

Yes, I think it is wrong that currently 95 games out of 100 is made for MSX1, but we can't force anyone to do against their will, it will not work, but we also should not guide people so strong to way or another. Are peoples expectations, how great the difference should be between the MSX models too great? Propably, but all of these platforms have plenty of things to show to the community.

I don't think it matter at all what platform you actually select in the end. I feel that it is false image that there are more people, who will enjoy your work if you do your stuff for MSX1. If you are active MSX user, you have already got your self at least MSX2 already. As noted before, ask your self how many MSX1 computers did you see on last MSX party you were visiting? Physically counting there are more MSX1 computers for sure, but it does not mean that more people will enjoy your work if you do it for MSX1. The reason (that I would not like to say because it sounds so bad) is that all of us have emulators and we even tend to be so lazy that we actually want to see the products in YouTube first. In the end you can't select the audience, you can only affect little, how we feel about your work.

I hope that every MSX model has it's place in this community and everyone is wellcome and free to do what ever they like. One thing I'm sure is that "you could have done this on MSX1" type of comments does not help anyone or make anyone feel better.

Amen

By jasonvieira

Rookie (23)

31-05-2011, 17:49

C'mon MSX2/2+/Tr developers, raise your hands and start doing something concrete. Gosh, please, METAL GEARs, VAMPIRE KILLER, ALESTE, YS, LAYDOCK, ASHGUINE, MR NINJA, GOLVELLIUS 2, FRAY, just to mention a few are perfect examples of games that I still love to play sometimes and I remember the excitement when I first played an MSX2 C'mon, I love MSX, see, M S X, not a specific version

By muffie

Paladin (933)

31-05-2011, 17:51

I think the message is: The more powerful the HW is, more time is needed for development.
Creating 1k games? Perfect. 8kb games cool!
32k MSX1 games. nice. 128k MSX1 games: doable!

MSX2 games... too much time/effort for a hobby maybe?

By ray2day

Paladin (732)

31-05-2011, 18:05

@Nyyrikki; Hell yeah!

I have been following this topic with much interest. For what I can say is that I saw a lot of great games lately. Lot of MSX1 games (i.e. MSXDev) and yes indeed a fewer amount of MSX2-and-higher games.

Like read here, I think one of the main reasons is that most of us have a lack of time (being dad, job, family etc.) so therefore I think every new MSX game made is one we should appreciate.

I also wanted to comment here; That I think it is too bad no-one mentions great MSX2-and-higher games in this topic (and huge projects if you ask me) released the past years as Manbow2, Goonies 'R' Good Enough and lots of great w.i.p. projects like Deva.

As you ofcourse I would like to see more projects like this, but like said I appreciate every single MSX game made at the moment.

Time is on my side, yes it is...!

Regards,
ray2day

By kuuno

Master (231)

17-09-2020, 23:16

@ NYYRIKKI I agree with you. I think the suggestion is a good example on your remark about ' it can be done on'..
I would love to see some new L'T and Bandwagon stuff for the MSX (2). I was impressed with the stuff they made for the assembly contest.
@Ray2day Also agree with you, I know for a fact that a lot of good programmers are busy now being a dad / mum
Didn't I mention Space Manbow and Goonies 2 somewhere in this topic? They are good projects and i'm sure took a lot of time to create.
@Ro, where is your comment?

By Paulbrk

Hero (611)

01-06-2011, 09:58

I am making two games for MSX2 and I am not thinking about "its possible to do on MSX1" because MSX2 is much better (SC4,SC5,SC8 and Scroll on all directions, thanks to set adjust).

By PingPong

Prophet (4095)

02-06-2011, 09:52

Yeah. Sprites on MSX2 are the main bottleneck (rotation/mirroring to avoid 9th sprite issue). If only they did something similar as on the Sega Master System VDP (mode 4). Sigh.

Even SMS sprites have a limit of 8/scanline. they have only better arrangement. No color table, same attribute layout of tms9918.
Also do not forget that the SMS VDP HAS 16 bit data bus. This allow for a much bandwidth.
However, SMS have only 8 pixels wide sprites.

So IMHO, if one does not take into account the colortable bottleneck, i do not see a big improvement.
Flickering is always with us.

By Huey

Prophet (2694)

03-06-2011, 11:06

So IMHO, if one does not take into account the colortable bottleneck, i do not see a big improvement.
Flickering is always with us.

- Multicolor tile mode (one big advantage)
- Scroll registers (sprites are not influenced by them)
- Tile layer priority (sprites in front or behind background)
- No wait states.
- Vertical/Horizontal 'score bar' masking.
- Multi color sprites
- 2 color palettes.

The only disadvantage is the limited VRAM limiting the number of tiles.

Anyway. Both systems have their charm. Just as colecovision which also feels alike with its own charm and scene.
I'd just like to play with all of them. I hope to contribute something to the SMS scene too in the future.

By PingPong

Prophet (4095)

03-06-2011, 12:19

Quote:

So IMHO, if one does not take into account the colortable bottleneck, i do not see a big improvement.
Flickering is always with us.

- Multicolor tile mode (one big advantage)
- Scroll registers (sprites are not influenced by them)
- Tile layer priority (sprites in front or behind background)
- No wait states.
- Vertical/Horizontal 'score bar' masking.
- Multi color sprites
- 2 color palettes.

I'm only speaking about sprites, not other video features.
So, an improvement could be the multicolor sprites, but that one, comes at the cost of having 8px wide sprites.
I already consider 16x16 pixels sprites rather limited, so having 8 pixels wide area involve to arrange more sprites/scanline, loosing the advantage or more sprites/scanline.

As said. The only improvement i see is the absence of the color table for sprites, because color information are embedded (more correctly) into tiles. Finally the 9918-SAT-like arrangement allows for faster sprite rotation, when used to avoiding flickering, because there is no need to move 512bytes as for msx2 vdp.

By Huey

Prophet (2694)

04-06-2011, 10:58

So, an improvement could be the multicolor sprites, but that one, comes at the cost of having 8px wide sprites.
I already consider 16x16 pixels sprites rather limited, so having 8 pixels wide area involve to arrange more sprites/scanline, loosing the advantage or more sprites/scanline.

Well. Most people would use at least 2 sprites for an enemy enabling 3 colors on a line for an object. So I do not see the (dis)avantage.

I do not want to turn this into a SMS vs MSX discussion. It's all about personal (dis)likes.
Luckily it is up to us individuals to decide what we make and for what platform/specs.