MSX 2's higher resolution modes and 15-Khz emulation

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By mars2000you

Enlighted (5885)

mars2000you's picture

15-08-2014, 09:49

Nyyrikki : there's some confusion in your answer. You need to make the distinction between the Windows screenshots and the blueMSX screenshots.

The second ones will always have the format 272x240 or 544x480. They are saved automatically in a specific subdirectory. From the manual :

Quote:

RAlt+F11 Saves a small unfiltered screenshot (272 x 240 pixels).
RAlt+F12 or PrtScrn Saves a large unfiltered screenshot (544 x 480 pixels).

Maybe you are confusing with openMSX that gives 640x480 screenshots if you are in window mode 2.

By Grauw

Ascended (9817)

Grauw's picture

15-08-2014, 10:52

Milsancho wrote:

no matter the resolution I select in its menu (admittedly, I can't select 640 x 480, most likely due to the emulator's listing limitations, since I have many modes, but who knows; I'm trying with 512 x 480, Blue MSX v. 282).

Thing is, blueMSX has got to have some threshold at which point it starts rendering 2 pixels per MSX pixel. I suspect this threshold is not at 512 pixels wide, but at 544 or 570 or 640.

Similarly, even if you have use a 640x240 mode, it might take the lowest value of the two to determine its pixel ratio.

So, this is why I suggested you to try 640x480 (or 720x480). To gather data. You want to find out where this threshold is currently. If you find this threshold then it can be changed, and it might give you something you can work with.

CRT TVs should be able to render up to 720 pixels at least (including overscan), because this is the standard SDTV resolution used by e.g. DVDs. V9990 even has a (blurry) 1024 pixels mode. If your graphics card can’t drive this resolution then it’s perhaps simply not suited for displaying full resolution MSX graphics (unless the emulator cuts off the borders).

Milsancho wrote:

I tried changing to Screen 7 and then to Screen 5 (apparently I did, at least) with no effect in the emulation whatsoever. So again I'm asking: Does Blue MSX emulate Screen 7 properly (does it render the whole horizontal res. without subscaling it to 256 px)?

And again, I already answered your question before: yes. The whole horizontal resolution in blueMSX being 544 pixels according to mars2000you (16 border pixels on either side).

You can easily confirm yourself by running the emulator on a normal high-res screen, outside of your current unusual environment. You should really try it, if you’re still doubting this basic fact of BlueMSX then you can’t form proper conclusions, you need to see it with your own eyes. If you find that there’s no effect even on a regular 1080p monitor, then you’re doing something wrong, because the emulation is 100% certainly there. It’s a very basic, essential emulation feature, and blueMSX is a very advanced emulator.

By the way, an easier way to test high res is to type SCREEN 0:WIDTH 80, optionally followed by a SET SCREEN command to persist it. This screen mode uses the same narrow pixels as screen 7 does, and now you can type and inspect the characters whether they’re low or high res. If half of the pixels are skipped (low res) then the text will look nearly unreadable. It’s easier than going to screen 7 and executing a Basic program to draw stuff on it etc.

~mk~ wrote:

If I were you I would try if the current version of MESS changes video modes on the fly.
I know it didn't in the past, but many things have improved lately, even on the MSX front.
In my opinion, MESS with the proper software database, has very good compatibility and you get for free all MESS features.

Judge is (one of the people) working on improving the MSX emulation. So work is definitely happening and from what I heard he made some pretty good progress.

By Milsancho

Resident (63)

Milsancho's picture

15-08-2014, 13:55

Quote:

If I were you I would try if the current version of MESS changes video modes on the fly.
I know it didn't in the past, but many things have improved lately, even on the MSX front.
In my opinion, MESS with the proper software database, has very good compatibility and you get for free all MESS features.

Will try UME, then, thanks. Does Groovy UME have a GUI similar to MAME 32 and whatnot? I don't use a multi-purpose frontend/launcher, currently.

Quote:

The blueMSX listing is not limited by the emulator, but by your own system. On my laptop, blueMSX gives a long listing of options, including 640x 480. These options correspond to all options that are compatible with the used PC/videocard.

Maybe you don't have in your system as many modes as I do. Hardly is it my system's fault since every other emulator I'm using doesn't have this limitation.

Quote:

Only way I can get low resolution screenshot is when I specifically select Small window (LAlt + F10) even then the pixels are scaled down properly

Quote:

The second ones will always have the format 272x240 or 544x480. They are saved automatically in a specific subdirectory. From the manual :

So Blue MSX doesn't save 544 x 240 screens as they are, without line-doubling them... Hum...

Quote:

Thing is, blueMSX has got to have some threshold at which point it starts rendering 2 pixels per MSX pixel. I suspect this threshold is not at 512 pixels wide, but at 544 or 570 or 640.

Similarly, even if you have use a 640x240 mode, it might take the lowest value of the two to determine its pixel ratio.

So, this is why I suggested you to try 640x480 (or 720x480). To gather data. You want to find out where this threshold is currently. If you find this threshold then it can be changed, and it might give you something you can work with.

Yeah, most likely that's it. But you see; the bigger res. I can select right now is 512 x 512. Getting rid of some modes in order to have this working would be a pain (and useless to me in the end). I really don't understand why the limitation in mode selection; it's the only emulator I use doing this.

Quote:

And again, I already answered your question before: yes. The whole horizontal resolution in blueMSX being 544 pixels according to mars2000you (16 border pixels on either side).

What's bugging me is why there's not a threshold for Screen 5 mode. If it can be run at 256 x 212 without issues (just no border) instead of 272 x 240, why it's not the same with 512 x 212. But whatever; your idea makes sense.

Quote:

You can easily confirm yourself by running the emulator on a normal high-res screen, outside of your current unusual environment. You should really try it,

Really; not that easy for me right now, but I do believe you now you're confirming it.

Thank you very much for all the answers.

By Grauw

Ascended (9817)

Grauw's picture

15-08-2014, 14:44

Milsancho wrote:

Yeah, most likely that's it. But you see; the bigger res. I can select right now is 512 x 512. Getting rid of some modes in order to have this working would be a pain (and useless to me in the end). I really don't understand why the limitation in mode selection; it's the only emulator I use doing this.

Probably other systems don’t have to deal with borders like MSX do, perhaps also not with multiple resolutions, so if their image has nice power-of-two widths, they fit within your bounds. For MSX emulators, for the sake of accuracy, borders are really part of the image (just like on the real thing). I myself am making use of the border on a regular basis because changing the background colour is a common method to measure performance during development.

The problem here is not the emulator, the problem is that you’re trying to make it fit a 544x240 image on a 512x212 display area Smile. As far as the emulator is concerned, border pixels aren’t treated any differently than non-border pixels. So the emulator simply says: oh that doesn’t fit, and responds by halving the resolution to the minimum which is required to show MSX1 games.

Milsancho wrote:

What's bugging me is why there's not a threshold for Screen 5 mode. If it can be run at 256 x 212 without issues (just no border) instead of 272 x 240, why it's not the same with 512 x 212. But whatever; your idea makes sense.

That’s probably because you’re hitting the lower limit, and anything below that just gets a 272x240 image which then is centered and clipped.

Anyway, thinking about it abstractly without knowing the blueMSX code, probably it wouldn’t be too difficult to adjust the code… But the problem is that the right person (dvik, afaik) is not reading this thread, and I don’t think he’s been working much on blueMSX lately (the most recent version is from 2009 if I’m not mistaken).

Have you tried openMSX? Its behaviour is probably different, perhaps in a way that is useful to you (or perhaps not).

Or you could just play the screen 2/4/5 games hehe Smile. Plenty of them. Screen 7 is still a minority.

By Milsancho

Resident (63)

Milsancho's picture

02-09-2014, 13:37

One final try in order to solve Blue MSX' problems with 15 kHz set-ups -- by manually editing the config. file, I can't get the emulator aknowledge the 640 x 480 mode, either:

video.monitorColor=color
video.monitorType=simple
video.contrast=100
video.brightness=100
video.saturation=100
video.gamma=100
video.scanlinesEnable=no
video.scanlinesPct=92
video.colorSaturationEnable=no
video.colorSaturationWidth=2
video.deInterlace=off
video.blendFrames=no
video.detectActiveMonitor=yes
video.horizontalStretch=no
video.verticalStretch=no
video.frameSkip=0
video.windowSize=small
video.windowX=75
video.windowY=81
video.fullscreen.width=640
video.fullscreen.height=480
video.fullscreen.bitDepth=32
video.maximizeIsFullscreen=yes
video.driver=directx
video.captureFps=60
video.captureSize=1
videoIn.disabled=0
videoIn.inputIndex=0
videoIn.inputName=

This is a snapshot of the aforementioned limit in the emulator's select menu:

Posting it here for the sake of completeness.

By Manuel

Ascended (17870)

Manuel's picture

13-03-2019, 13:20

FYI: the latest openMSX development build has a new way to go fullscreen, without changing the desktop resolution.

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