MSX 1 smoothscroller general purpose engine

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By PingPong

Prophet (3459)

PingPong's picture

14-04-2012, 15:02

MäSäXi wrote:

Which game Ping Pong? Did Ghost ´n Goblins really do that? Strange. The one I know loaded whole game from the cassette at once.

Ghost ´n´ Goblins C64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6wnGk5-mcI

Ghouls´n´Ghosts C64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0PjgfHf5Q

@MASAXI: we are getting OT. Anyway i'm referring to the first.

By enribar

Paladin (1004)

enribar's picture

15-04-2012, 02:44

So... ladies and gentlemen, this is the great Ghosts 'n Goblins for the C64...
Total score: 94 by Zapp! number 4 page 37 http://www.zzap.it/explorer.php?album=4&immagine=37
Bleah...! I agree with hit9918, MSX DO BETTER!

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6277)

ARTRAG's picture

15-04-2012, 10:34

For sure you can do better with an msx2+ using FM chips and HW scrolling...
With an msx2 you can try to use SW scrolling in screen 5, but the simplest approach would be screen 4 and moving borders, in any case the psg audio would be worst. In the end the graphic would be better, the audio not. The screen5 version could occasionally present some glitch and slowdown.
With an msx1, for the audio see above, for the video, the smooth scrolling seems promising but I would like to see it in a real game with audio and AI before telling if the remaining cpu is sufficient to guarantee an acceptable gameplay
I think that a tile based approach would be more promising (see the zombie monster game).
Once we have said what in theory could be tried, we stay with a spectrum port and few tech demos...
Instead of telling all the time "msx is better becouse could have done" we should reason on actual games, don't you think?

By enribar

Paladin (1004)

enribar's picture

15-04-2012, 18:01

@ARTRAG: I'm talking about C64 version, 94% is a extremely high score...
C64 has hardware scroll and SID is one of the best sound chips... So with these assumptions, this C64 version should be more better!
Sound is very poor, scrool is easy to do with C64, and graphics is not always detailed and well coloured, multiple loadings because it does not fit in 64KB... So, for the power of C64, this is not a real good programming job... and surely is not a 94% software... Let's say: 80% should be a right score for this conversion, because 94% means perfection...
In 1986 Casio, Konami, Compile, Zap and others programmed real good funny games with high playability and good graphics and sound. And these games could be improved, so I convincing myself that hit9918's got the reason.
In the 80s, 8bit magazines were "bibles" and people believed to them, so they created false myths that last till today.

By PingPong

Prophet (3459)

PingPong's picture

15-04-2012, 21:20

ARTRAG wrote:

With an msx2 you can try to use SW scrolling in screen 5, but the simplest approach would be screen 4 and moving borders, in any case the psg audio would be worst. In the end the graphic would be better, the audio not. The screen5 version could occasionally present some glitch and slowdown.
With an msx1, for the audio see above, for the video, the smooth scrolling seems promising but I would like to see it in a real game with audio and AI before telling if the remaining cpu is sufficient to guarantee an acceptable gameplay

Years ago dvik gng demo showed us the msx1 approach of smooth scrolling using tiles. there is a demo around. I agree with ARTRAG, about remaining CPU time for other tasks, however i'm a bit optimistic just because the speccy port spend 80% of its time to perform graphic management, and also the ZX port.

About msx2, i think sc5 is doable, just because the scroll is not in it's full height so there should be plenty of time available even with ARTRAG approach for smooth scrolling in screen 5.

MSX2+ version will win on every aspect compared to C64 one...

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6277)

ARTRAG's picture

15-04-2012, 22:16

enribar, it happens that I like the c64 conversion of G&G a lot, especially the music with its samples and all the rest.
In place of theoretical talk, I'd like to see something developed and playable, continuing chatting of what could have been is almost onanism.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6277)

ARTRAG's picture

12-05-2012, 00:45

Let me resurrect this topic. I was trying to use hit9918's tools on a picture of a full level of nemesis 3.
I've succeded to have the file "conv_mk.bat" working. It returns these files:
tst.a08,tst.a16
tst.n08,tst.n16
tst.co0-7
tst.pa0-7

These files are not enough for the basic loader that hangs if i replace my files with those provided in the tool.
The other scripts does not help.
What are the other steps to generate all the files for the basic loader?
Have anyone tried to use this tool on any .gif not included in the package?

By hit9918

Prophet (2868)

hit9918's picture

12-05-2012, 01:57

The neighbour tile problem, they so often mix different tiles, the memory usage gets too high.

I just note that the to-scrollable-graphics converter is not yet in the release, it is scrollableSC2.jar in
http://jf.peer.name/msx/demo20120119scrollphoto.zip
just click it, need a java installed. It loads "tst.gif".

With that converter you can see how scrollable gfx can look like.
Before, scrollers were linecolor tiles like MSX2 sprites, "all background colors black".
Then stuffing Nemesis levels into the converter is seeing things never seen before :D:D:D
Maybe need a bit scroll obsession to get the maximum joy of it ;)

If I remember right, in karoshi forum I have seen an avatar with a multicolortable malaika grass tile?
Is maybe Malaika2 in the making?

That issue is not bound to my engine, "pippols engines" with all tiles in vram technically are multicolortable, every scroll step got its own colorbytes.
scrollableSC2.jar is the guide to this mode.

p.s. a whole nemesis map will take loong time, take only one level

p.p.s a screenshot of malaika should load without memory problems in the demo.
the level should be min 32x24 size to not cause garbage.
In scrollconv.java, the line
int yscroll = 0; //set to 0 or 1
set yscroll to 1 for getting a diagonal scroll demo. Make the level higher than 24 chars.

By hit9918

Prophet (2868)

hit9918's picture

12-05-2012, 03:27

Like, Goblins no more is on my doability-radar. It is doable.
I want to remind of my goblins sketch http://jf.peer.name/msx/demo20101001.zip

It is NOT like I don't release game because in a real game would be not enough cpu.
I got no tech problems, I got time problems. But the project has not stopped running my head.
There are still problems to solve, but they are like on any computer, the scroll engine is finished.

Well except that the scroll engine is never finished... and the peak not reached.
I got many ideas in the lab. I cant stop using time on these things. Example:
Look at the z80 executing this code sequence:

RET
ld a,I already know my allocation
out 98
RET
ld a,I already know my allocation
out 98
RET
ld a,I already know my allocation
out 98
...

This does the nametable draw plus dynamic charset allocation near VDP speed limit.

The z80 RET instruction is actually made to be a hispeed special opcode for
"fetch the next tile from the level and execute its dynamic method" :D
Upon first occurence of a tile in a frame, different code will allocate and poke itself to the above form.
Hack hack hack :)

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6277)

ARTRAG's picture

12-05-2012, 08:15

I've sent an email at your onlogger address with the file I was trying to convert.

The files in the scrollphoto package crop away a lot of the picture. I think I need a check from you.

Would it be hard to change the scroll to x4 steps ?
I would really to try with this simplified solution.
The room in ram would be cut down and the result in terms of color clash would improve
(to not consider the time to process the data by the java tools)
Moreover adopting a megarom paging would be perfect for this tool

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