Reproduce instrument tibre with PSG

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Por Grauw

Ascended (10821)

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27-02-2023, 18:24

On MSX2 and up you can get a 300 Hz equalized timer using line interrupts.

But I’m not sure whether that’s really needed, modulating amplitude and pitch at 60 Hz seems like it should be enough. You might get a tiny bit more fidelity out of higher LFO rates, but in the end the limiting factor of how much of an approximation of a certain instrument you will be able to get is that the PSG only outputs square waves.

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

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27-02-2023, 18:43

There's a reason why FM-synthesis is usually sine-based. More complex or harsher waves usually make things worse, especially if you don't have a filter to cut most of the crap away.

Por DarkSchneider

Paragon (1030)

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27-02-2023, 19:19

What is the maximum "distortion" that can be achieved at vblank (50/60) rate with only the square wave (no noise or EG)? I'd like to listen some examples of "PSG square instrumentation".

Por sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

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27-02-2023, 19:37

My 2 cents on this topic: the PSG uses simple AM modulation instead of FM, but there' nothing impeding you to try to combine existing sound engineering techniques with it. With some care and dedication it's possible to craft very convincing drum sounds from the PSG, i.e.

Whether it will sound or not is a matter of personal taste, like the amount/type of distortion applied on an electric guitar. The NES, i.e. doesn't have any filters on its sound output and most people love its harsh sound.

And you don't even need to go all the way to use sampling or very high update frequencies. The PSG has some nifty features that only recently have been explored, like using the envelope generator as its own sound channel, as a secondary operator to AM modulate the waveform of a sound channel.

I'll list some examples below, and the oscilloscope view allows to easily visualize some of the techniques being used. I hope it helps you, @aoineko:

cuz i can

Tobikomi - Eighty Days With Z

Snake Oil Empire

Ducktales - The Moon Theme

Hardy

The BITCRUSHER

Mellow

Doorbellsplosion

Poppy

Chip Champion - Ultimate_Sceneballz_FinalRelease

Por aoineko

Paragon (1136)

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27-02-2023, 19:38

http://webmsx.org/?ROM=https://github.com/aoineko-fr/MSXgl/r... the first music have a instrument I used as a base for piano. It sound more like a harpsichord, but with some modification I came with something pianoish. Still testing things.

Real instrument's base note amplitude enveloppe are easy to find on the net, but I can't find info about picth evolution over time. Instruments don't create perfect pitch from start to end. Frequency spectrum show that but not the evolution over time. I think it could help to make ISR instruments sound a little bit more natural.

Por sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

Imagen del sd_snatcher

27-02-2023, 20:18

Yes, more advanced replayers do reproduce the pitch effect regardless of the soundchip. Even an OPL soundchip can sound a lot better when the called macro instruments are used. (sometimes called dynamic instruments)

Macro instruments are that: they change the characteristics of the instrument over time and sound much better than instruments with static parameters ("patches" in the Yamaha terminology).

Furnace Tracker has support for this.

Por PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

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27-02-2023, 21:35

Quote:

I think it's possible to do something by exploiting sprite collision. (A bit like the MSX logo of the MSX2+.)

Can you elaborate or clarify a bit more? What is the trick on msx2+ logo ?

Por aoineko

Paragon (1136)

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27-02-2023, 21:33

PingPong wrote:

Can you elaborate or clarify a bit more? What is the trick on msx2+ logo ?

And can you please elborate in a dedicated thread Wink

sd_snatcher wrote:

I'll list some examples below, and the oscilloscope view allows to easily visualize some of the techniques being used. I hope it helps you, @aoineko:

Thanks. Some songs have very intersting sound.
For example Doorbellsplosion, has sounds that sound pretty much like a trumpet.

In the Arkos Tracker documentation I read that putting an arpegio on the attack frames of an instrument could give a "chord" effect. This is the kind of trick I'm interested in and I'm surprised not to find more info on the web (especially since the AY-3-8910 is shared by many machines).

Por PingPong

Enlighted (4155)

Imagen del PingPong

27-02-2023, 21:40

[quote=aoineko wrote:
PingPong wrote:

Can you elaborate or clarify a bit more? What is the trick on msx2+ logo ?

And can you please elborate in a dedicated thread Wink

The thread is correct, and my comment is not off-topic. a trick is mentioned to achieve PSG effects using a higher resolution timer, so I asked what the trick is. Perhaps if more details were provided instead of being vague about it, I wouldn't have needed to ask.

Por gdx

Enlighted (6429)

Imagen del gdx

28-02-2023, 00:58

PingPong wrote:

Can you elaborate or clarify a bit more? What is the trick on msx2+ logo ?

I don't remember well but, It should be something like register 0 is refreshed during the scanline to know which sprites overlap. This allows you to know where it is happening and therefore to clock something. The sprites are not visible if they are placed in an area of the same color.

Aoineko, I like the sound of your ROM sample. It's much better than the mix of coos and sizzles from the videos above.

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