Moonsound Music Editor and Replayer Using only Samples

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Por norakomi

Paragon (1086)

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17-06-2020, 19:13

So far so good.
My progress so far:
Moonsound sample Replayer

Por ToriHino

Hero (543)

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17-06-2020, 19:33

Nice! Is working quite well already.

Por msxtrd

Master (223)

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17-06-2020, 19:58

Thumbs up! Good work! Smile

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (9813)

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17-06-2020, 20:33

So, you're using a VST to play sounds you'll be using in the MSX-version as well? Custom sounds I bet, or did you convert the whole OPL4-WaveROM to Grace as well?

Here's what I'd fear:
- your 5 int example... that's not taking into account int-based tweaks like custom coded pitchbend, vibrato and volume changes. Now make a 24-channel wave tune with lots of Z80-based 'automation' so to say, then check again.
- Are the OPL4's native envelopes and LFOs portable to Grace? Even just a bit off can have drastic setbacks on the end result.
- Grace will make great interpolation and oversampling, resulting in very clean sounds, the OPL4 doesn't (it actually sounds quite tinny). So when playing back at an MSX, the result might be a bit of a bummer.
- Grace will probably allocate a new internal channel to trigger a new note. If you play a new note on the same channel in e.g. MBWave, you'll hear a tick between these notes. Obviously, if you start a silent sample while the previous sound was playing at the max, this gives a tick. Grace has the resources to pick a new channel while the old tone gracefully dies out, I wouldn't expect the same from en OPL4... unless you start cycling through internal channels (e.g. with 16 channels you'd have 8 channels left as a buffer to let old sounds fade away). But doing so obviously means less sound in the end.

Now, these latter two points I usually cope with by acting like an obsessed surgeon, thinking about each step and how to make it sound as good as possible. But that does require you to work with the chip, not with a modern version of the idea of that chip.
Also, do you really require to export, convert and load a tune to check how it sounds on the real thing? That's a rather large feedback-cycle. And I thought the settings scan in MBWave at position 150 was bad already. ^_^

Por Grauw

Ascended (9181)

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17-06-2020, 22:32

norakomi wrote:

So far so good.
My progress so far:
Moonsound sample Replayer

Super nice! And nice video too :).

A while ago the maker of Singular Stone also said on Twitter that he’s composing the music in a similar manner. That game uses the MSX-MUSIC so he uses Plogue PortaFM plugin.

In my approach I have an intermediate step where I can receive the MIDI in real-time so I can play on hardware directly with a MIDI keyboard and Arturia BeatStep & KeyStep Pro. Then I’d record that MIDI into a DAW and fine-tune it and convert it to a register data stream like you do that‘s compact and perfectly timed. (Converter still to-do.)

Por ren

Paragon (1459)

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18-06-2020, 09:58

Any of you ever looked into Radium?

You could call it the tracker evolved. Has a (vertical) piano-roll as well.
Not sure if it could fit norakomi's use case, it does have a built-in sampler & extensive scripting possibilities.

The Linux Audio Conference 2014 paper is an interesting read (see 'Info').

There's a nice demo on chance/probability: Radium Tracker - Quick 2Bars Only Demo ( Renoise "maYbe"- Style, Piano Roll inlcuded... ;) ) (Tobias Lutzenkirchen)

That, and Jeskola Buzz of course.. :) (Still wondering how that would've evolved (differently) if it wasn't for the HDD crash..)

Por norakomi

Paragon (1086)

Imagen del norakomi

18-06-2020, 10:32

@Wolf
Thanks for all the input. It's great to get these pointers and tips from someone with so much experience making music.

Quote:

Custom sounds I bet, or did you convert the whole OPL4-WaveROM to Grace as well?

So far I only use custom sounds. Eventually I would have to find a way to convert the whole OPL4-WaveROM to Grace or any other sampler.

Quote:

- your 5 int example... that's not taking into account int-based tweaks like custom coded pitchbend, vibrato and volume changes.

True. And I'm not sure how I will handle this. Also considering the fact that working with midi instruments means that we can't apply pitchbends/ vibrato changes in our piano roll. At least not in a way that we can hear it in our DAW. So this is an issue. So only panning and volume changes are what we can actually work with directly in our DAW's piano roll. We see it, hear it, and it gets saved in the midi file when we export. So I'm not sure how to apply pitchbends/ vibratos yet...

Quote:

- Grace will probably allocate a new internal channel to trigger a new note.

Grace has the same functionality the playback on a real msx offers. You can choose to stop the sample at the end of the note's lenght. So note off, means note off, the sample stops playing. You can even choose to loop the sample and you can even choose the loop position. These options are great, because you can do exactly the same on the msx.

Quote:

Also, do you really require to export, convert and load a tune to check how it sounds on the real thing?

In the beginning phase of this project, yes. Later on, when things are more fine tuned it should sound at least 95%-99% like it sounds on the pc.

@Grauw
Thanx ! I checked out Plogue PortaFM plugin. Pretty cool !!!

Quote:

Then I’d record that MIDI into a DAW and fine-tune it and convert it to a register data stream like you do that‘s compact and perfectly timed.

Cool that you do it the same way. When converting it to a data stream I make sure I make things as compact as possible. So I only write volume information if it has actually changed. The same for pitch and panning. And I remove a lot of data from the midi file that I dont need (like rest: 0, or additional note OFF info like tone and volume)

@Ren
Radium looks very cool indeed. But this is something more for the composers. Everyone would end up making music with the tools they want. Radium looks very cool because it has so much options to manipulate your samples.

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (9813)

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18-06-2020, 13:34

norakomi wrote:

Grace has the same functionality the playback on a real msx offers. You can choose to stop the sample at the end of the note's lenght. So note off, means note off, the sample stops playing. You can even choose to loop the sample and you can even choose the loop position. These options are great, because you can do exactly the same on the msx.

I'm not quite sure you've understood my point, or maybe I don't understand your answer, but anyway. Wink
Can you pick a pure/clean sinewave sound, either a short loop or a long 'unrolled' sound.

Then in Cubase, in the key-editor, make this in one bar:
[C5____][C#5___][D5____][D#5___]

This should be the equivalent of an MB-pattern with these notes at rows 1, 5, 9 and 13.
No note-offs, other than a bar just ending when a new note begins.

What do you hear in Grace? If you don't hear ticks at the new notes, then Grace will pick a new internal channel to play while the previous note quickly fades out. If you do hear a tick, then you can indeed simulate the MBwave way of things in Grace. Note that it's not even an MBwave thing, any system with a limited amount of channels would have ticks when the arrangements gets thick enough. The classic Impulse Tracker had a very short fade-out and fade-in at the end and the start of notes, but this is a software effect that probably doesn't work well on an MSX.

* tick = disruption of the audio continuum

Por norakomi

Paragon (1086)

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18-06-2020, 16:19

Yes in Grace you also hear ticks.
The sample just gets cut as soon as you play the next note.
In the piano roll you can choose the lenght of your note.
The sample then stops when the end is reached (or when a new note is played)

Por syn

Paragon (1968)

Imagen del syn

18-06-2020, 22:35

Grauw wrote:
norakomi wrote:

So far so good.
My progress so far:
Moonsound sample Replayer

Super nice! And nice video too :).

A while ago the maker of Singular Stone also said on Twitter that he’s composing the music in a similar manner. That game uses the MSX-MUSIC so he uses Plogue PortaFM plugin.

Interesting, i was thinking of getting ploque soon to make some opll -ish songs in ableton. from what i read he just converts the midi files to mml. I assume this does not offer too much flexibility from a sound design perspective?

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