MSX scene going banana's?

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Por PingPong

Prophet (3760)

Imagen del PingPong

04-06-2011, 12:43


So, an improvement could be the multicolor sprites, but that one, comes at the cost of having 8px wide sprites.
I already consider 16x16 pixels sprites rather limited, so having 8 pixels wide area involve to arrange more sprites/scanline, loosing the advantage or more sprites/scanline.

Well. Most people would use at least 2 sprites for an enemy enabling 3 colors on a line for an object. So I do not see the (dis)avantage.

the disadvantage is clear: teoretically sms vdp would allow 8 sprites/scanline, multicolored. this appear as a advantage over the V9938 vdp. Pratically you loose this, because one very often need more than 8 pixel wide area. So what do you do? you place two sprites on the same scanline. in this way you get a multicolored 16px wide sprite on the sms. But in this way, you can have only 4 'logical' sprites per scanline. like on V9938.

So the SMS model is a bit better if i have a game that uses small objects (like bullets). I can have the beauty of multicolor bullets, without being limited to apply multicolor on a scanline basis.
If, on the other hand my, weapon is a sword, so a wide sprite, that could be of only 1 color, the V9938 model is better, because i use only 1 monochromatic sprite instead of two, always required on SMS.

The others situations, are somewhat equivalent. The majority is always the case of 16x16 pixel multicolor sprites.
In that case i need two sprites both on SMS VDP or V9938 VDP

This is the reason for me to say: 'I do not see a big improvement'. For me is much more an improvement the abilty to encode color information directly in sprite pattern table. (SMS vdp)

This allow a more logical management of sprite patters, together with colors, and avoid the need to push 512bytes every frame for ungly color informations.


I do not want to turn this into a SMS vs MSX discussion. It's all about personal (dis)likes.
Luckily it is up to us individuals to decide what we make and for what platform/specs.
Running Naked in a Field of FlowersRunning Naked in a Field of FlowersRunning Naked in a Field of FlowersRunning Naked in a Field of Flowers

Me too. It's a point of view. Wink

And a side note: the V9938 has no bandwidth limitations in active area when used with a z80@3.5 mhz.
Time ago i've pushed data to vdp with a bunch of outi statement, while in active area, with a blitter command running, and 32 sprites on screen arranged as a grid of 8 x 4 sprites. I can confirm that there is no corruption. the vdp was operating at 60Hz

The bandwidth limitations only apply to TMS VDP.

Por syn

Prophet (2065)

Imagen del syn

04-06-2011, 14:55

This is an interesting topic indeed and like ray2day i have been following it from the start

I am really interested in making a game someday for the MSX 2+ or Turbo R, because msx2+ was the system that played a big part in my life when i was young. Like said earlier, I think this is the reason not everyone likes the MSX2 or 2+ even, because they grew up with msx 1 instead.

I wonder how the asian msx scene is like? I dont see much news regarding any recent games from there? which kinds of surprises me since from what I read japanese people are very active in the homebrew scene (called doujin over there) on pc and some consoles like dreamcast.

Though I am at the moment focusing on art (mostly practicing drawings and sprites atm), I would expect my first game to be finished in 10 years or so, maybe at that time there will no longer be any working turbo r's left Wink

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

Imagen del MäSäXi

17-09-2020, 23:17

I don´t know, if everybody has understood my words correctly. If somebody starts to talk about screen 4 msx2 game and I happen to like that game idea, I will probably just try to get some talk if it would be possible to make BOTH msx2 AND msx(1) versions, because in theory you can convert screen 4 game to run on screen 2.

I have not said anything like "do NOT make msx2 version", like some people seem to read my words. But I guess that maybe it is just so that some MSX2´ers see RED if someone dares to mention about possible MSX(1) conversion of some MSX2 project, because they fear their MSX2 game will get cancelled if someone starts to talk about MSX(1) conversion. Right?

Just let everyone to speak about their ideas, ok? If you do not like somebody´s ideas, do not read it. Ok? Big smile Tongue

Por PingPong

Prophet (3760)

Imagen del PingPong

04-06-2011, 16:11


I don´t know, if everybody has understood my words correctly. If somebody starts to talk about screen 4 msx2 game and I happen to like that game idea, I will probably just try to get some talk if it would be possible to make BOTH msx2 AND msx(1) versions, because in theory you can convert screen 4 game to run on screen 2.

That's the point masaxi:

you are extremely confused by the idea that screen 4 is somewhat similar to screen 2 in memory arrangement and limits.
while this is partially true, you cannot rely on this to ask a msx1 version.
Like most people have already told in this forum, a smooth scroller on msx1 is based on a TOTALLY different approach than on msx2. And this is different on msx2+ even. The latter is the one that have true support for smooth scrolling (H).

If you add this a different approach in sprite handling, (do not understimate the presence of the sprite color table, managing this is somewhat complicated in vblank time if you want sprite plane rotation), you are in a situation where the difference is not so different between making a game for different platforms.
Lot of key things change.

Plus you need to consider also this: there are tons of mario clones on msx1 already, some of these are great.
Why doing another remake? i think the only reason is to get something better than existing ones.

Basically we are seeking for a smooth scroller, and colorful, without color-spill limitations implementation.
With those spec in mind even a msx2 is not totally compliant.

So, it's normal that focus is posed on msx2 machines.
making it on msx1 would reduce that game to another clone of "bioman" or so-called games.
on msx1 i need to trade smooth scrolling vs color "richness". We want all of them together.
If i trade smoothness for color i end up with a ugly game, that is super bio man for msx1 is better
On the other hand, i can accept 8 blocky scrolling and have a color ful background. But i end up with super bio man.
Y A B C (Yet another bioman clone)

So making this game for msx1 is worthless, giving the fact that there are already similar games that use the msx1 machine at good level.

Situation would be different if super mario or cloned games did not exist.

I hope you understood my words correctly. Was not my intention to be a polemic.

Por MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

Imagen del MäSäXi

04-06-2011, 19:21

I did understood your words correctly. Smile

Por Eugeny_Brychkov

Paragon (1183)

Imagen del Eugeny_Brychkov

05-06-2011, 16:34

It's that i'm amazed that it almost seems there was no progression at all.
No leadership = no progression.

Por kuuno

Master (231)

Imagen del kuuno

06-06-2011, 18:45

@ping & Mas, please let us keep to the topic and try to keep away from detailed pro's and cons.
@eugeny, i dont think that leadership is the biggest issue within the progression.

@all
After reading this topic I got a renewed understanding of the current MSX-scene.
Its good to see / hear new project and progress that has been made over the years.
I think I can summarize that a lot of MSX-users (not developers!) are missing next-gen apps though.
With nextgen I mean MSX 2, 2+, TR and not to mention extensions like moonsound / v9990.
Is there a solution for this? I don't think so, unless all users start to program, which is an utopia.
But, when talking about developing I can see there is a lot of expertise within msx.org. Here is my 2 cents:

A lot of this expertise is shared in different topics, yet I've never seen a code-library (like MSDN) nor a site where development projects are gathered.
Is this troublesome? I don't know. For me, as a non-programmer, I find it hard to start learning any basic or advanced programming techniques.
Yesh, I have a (japanese) basic manual, and yesh there are a lot of technical books available on the internet.
What I find missing is a library with sample code, (basic, machine language, c, pascal) and executables.

Por hap

Paragon (2038)

Imagen del hap

06-06-2011, 19:04

did you search? Tongue
ok... start here: http://map.grauw.nl/

*edit* mind, that learning to become a (MSX) programmer is a very arduous task. Add a hundred more 'very' if you're not motivated or much interested in the topic. (oh, and I mean ASM or C+inline ASM. Not BASIC)

Por hit9918

Prophet (2905)

Imagen del hit9918

06-06-2011, 20:13


I think I can summarize that a lot of MSX-users (not developers!) are missing next-gen apps though.
With nextgen I mean MSX 2, 2+, TR and not to mention extensions like moonsound / v9990.
Is there a solution for this?

There is a solution, users can help test stuff on real machines. Especially needed on the complex MSX2 where emulators are imprecise.

Can the MSX2 command engine be stopped and restarted!? Maybe this is an old hat, but when wisdom gets lost over the years, it is striking new inventions going on!

Like, it is still to be sorted out how to actually program the MSX2. Program it in a way that the result is "next-gen app" as opposed to "I could do almost same on MSX1".

Por Eugeny_Brychkov

Paragon (1183)

Imagen del Eugeny_Brychkov

06-06-2011, 20:19

i dont think that leadership is the biggest issue within the progression.
@Remko, what is the biggest issue from your POV then?

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